I'm not a communist

I think no one here or anywhere else in their right mind would start to compare flaws of capitalism with flaws of faschism, and sufferings from these two, and no one would describe faschism as not a bad idea which did not work out properly. Just bear in mind that communist regime is worst than faschism in terms of both numbers of victims and day-by-day life.

The brutal effects of totalitarian regimes canot be measured in terms of deaths. Nazi-Fascism isn't better than Bolchevism just because the first scored 30 million deaths and the later scored 100 million deaths. They are (were) both EVIL, no matter if one or one billion were executed.

Atkingani wrote: The brutal effects of totalitarian regimes canot be measured in terms of deaths. Nazi-Fascism isn't better than Bolchevism just because the first scored 30 million deaths and the later scored 100 million deaths. They are (were) both EVIL, no matter if one or one billion were executed.

Atkingani wrote: The brutal effects of totalitarian regimes canot be measured in terms of deaths. Nazi-Fascism isn't better than Bolchevism just because the first scored 30 million deaths and the later scored 100 million deaths. They are (were) both EVIL, no matter if one or one billion were executed.

I have to dispute your numbers, there, though I agree with your general point. I'd say around 10-20 million people were killed under Stalin.

eugene wrote: I think no one here or anywhere else in their right mind would start to compare flaws of capitalism with flaws of faschism, and sufferings from these two, and no one would describe faschism as not a bad idea which did not work out properly. Just bear in mind that communist regime is worst than faschism in terms of both numbers of victims and day-by-day life.

I disagree, but we're really moving into academic territory, now, grisly academia at that, as both are abhorrent and both killed millions of people. I don't think it helps anyone to work out which was more brutal and oppressive, the Soviet Union or Guatemala, for example.

The major flaw in capitalism is that profit rules, capitalists will sell weapons to absolutely anyone, usually because the people they're selling them to will secure their interests.

Suharto killed over 1 million people in Indonesia and East Timor with US and British weapons that we continued to supply over 25 years. The Shah in Iran was kept in power by US and British support coupled with his brutal torture squads. The US and their puppet governments killed up to 4 million people in Indochina and, after the Khmer Rouge were ousted by Vietnam, funded Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in their terrorist attacks on Cambodia.

The difference between fascism/communism and capitalism is this, capitalist countries are relatively free (though not totally) but keep in power dictatorships for their own profit and if a country step out of line, they bomb it to hell.


Edited by Forgotten Son - April 07 2007 at 12:27

Forgotten Son wrote: Suharto killed over 1 million people in Indonesia and East Timor with US and British weapons that we continued to supply over 25 years.

and all those killings were mostly caused by suspicion against the ex-communist party members, even their family and relatives were also included, or at least heavily surpressed between his reign.

andu wrote: Aren't you proving your first sentence wrong with what you write next? Anyway, the problem with communism is much more grave: it's about about the denial of the basic human rights, especially freedom. Communism was set by its founders on the fundamentally absurd idea that it's proven right (which was not) and it must be unilaterally developed even against those others having other opinions. Hence the over one hundred million victims (those who thought different) made by communist regimes all over, and the general lack of freedom (those who were forbid to think different). One other major related problem was that communism was set on the idea that some people are fundamentally bad (the "exploiting class") and only some are good (the working class), and that the bad need to be fought and hated. This is where the fundamental difference with Christianity reveals itself beyond any cheap "they both rely on equality" talk. Christianity is a religion of love (even the bad people must be loved because we're all the same, they can redeem themselves just like any other in front of God); Communism is a policy of hate (some people are simply bad and they must be fought until our class will prevail). And mind you, the "exploiting class" didn't mean economy moguls for the communist regimes, but also people with private property, people with liberal professions, and basically any people who weren't of peasant/working class origins, or any people who thought different. Actually, the vast majority of the people on this forum would be considered by default, in a communist regime, actual or virtual enemies of the regime, and would be watched closely, persecuted and, depending on the context, prosecuted, emprisoned, deported, executed. Coming back to what you said, It is "only" poverty, hunger, economic failure that come from inefficiency. Fear, terror, death, these all come from other aspects of this wonderful ideology.

I believe that the idea of communism and the ability to implement it are completely separate.  In a perfect world, communism should work.  Of course, the world is not perfect.  At any rate, the distinction between the two is moot because communism cannot be effectively implemented: I think there is plenty of evidence of that.

You do raise an important point that I failed to consider.  I implicitly assume that the central planner of the economy is just and wants to allocate resources efficiently while all the individuals in the economy are willing to have these decisions made by somebody else.  In a perfect world this maybe be true, but in reality it certainly isn't.

True communism is the way ahead.......main problem being, someone still thinks that they are better than the rest.

Edited by Hyperborea - April 07 2007 at 20:37