Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > Tech Talk
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - mp3: Different codecs/params -> Quality
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic Closedmp3: Different codecs/params -> Quality

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21199
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2007 at 03:21
^ how can you expect a better sound when you limit the bitrate to 128kbps? You're not using VBR at all, are you? If you set a range between 64kbps and 128kbps the sound will of course be inferior to 128kbps CBR.Confused

Try setting a range between 64kbps and 160kbps with medium quality settings ... the resulting files should average at 128kbps and sound a bit better than standard 128kbps. The better alternative would of course be to invest a few euros and get a bigger hard drive!
Back to Top
toolis View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 26 2006
Location: MacedoniaGreece
Status: Offline
Points: 1678
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2007 at 02:58
^ok, now, i set the bit rate range as you suggested along with the first settings of yours and turns out that it's not that big a space difference only that it takes three times more to rip 'em...

anyway, what sound differences am i supposed to listen to?
-music is like pornography...

sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...



-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21199
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2007 at 03:01
^ what bitrate are you comparing? You should hear a difference for 128kbps CBR vs. 64kbps-320kbps VBR q=0, and the files should be approx. 50% larger.
Back to Top
toolis View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 26 2006
Location: MacedoniaGreece
Status: Offline
Points: 1678
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2007 at 03:13
^min:64 max:160.. tracks appear to have a bit rate of 160 kbps after ripping and there are only a few Kb bigger... all the other settings are just like you mentioned in your very first post of this thread...

i compared the same track with the default and the new settings and... sorry, i don't hear it... maybe it's my PC.. dunno..
-music is like pornography...

sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...



-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
Back to Top
rileydog22 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: August 24 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 8844
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2007 at 22:31
Despite having very nice headphones (Etymotic Isolater 6i), 128 kb/s fixed rate sounds fine to me, and I hear no improvement when I use a higher bitrate.  It's actually a blessing; audiophiles are constantly eating harddrive space and blowing money on upgrades, while I'm happy with 128 kb/s mp3's and pretty shoddy audio equipment. 

Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21199
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 03:23
Originally posted by toolis toolis wrote:

^min:64 max:160.. tracks appear to have a bit rate of 160 kbps after ripping and there are only a few Kb bigger... all the other settings are just like you mentioned in your very first post of this thread...

i compared the same track with the default and the new settings and... sorry, i don't hear it... maybe it's my PC.. dunno..


Of course 160kbps is only 32kbps more than 128kbps, the difference will be very small. And you need the right kind of track - use something which is difficult to encode, like Post Rock, Extreme Metal, Stoner Rock - with either lots of distorted guitars, loud noise or much cymbals/high pitch sounds.

BTW: Windows does *not* show the average bitrate for VBR files ... you need a sane player (like winamp, for example) to see it. The average bitrate gives a good indication of the complexity of the music.
Back to Top
ebag7125 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 21 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 20:26
i use iTunes at 160kbps  Do you guys think thats ok?
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21199
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 04:33
^ Sure. Anything that works for you is ok ... I'm just saying that it might sound better with VBR, I'm not saying that it's required in order to enjoy the music. 128kbps is too low though - I could name tons of tracks which cannot be encoded in 128kbps without obvious degradation of audio quality.

Back to Top
Angelo View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13244
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 05:37
Mike, have you also tried Ogg, at say level Q6?
ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21199
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 06:56
I know OGG, and it's quite good ... it's certainly more advanced than mp3. But my portable player does not support it, so I stick to mp3.
Back to Top
Angelo View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13244
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 06:59
I see. I switched a couple of weeks ago, when I found out that my Samsung YP-1 does support the format. Q6 is just great!
ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21199
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 07:01
How big are the files at Q6?
Back to Top
Angelo View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13244
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 07:22
Depending on the complexity of the song, my files are almost always slightly smaller than MP3 128-192VBR. 
ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21199
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 07:24
Just tell me some file sizes of popular tracks (some Ayreon or Porcupine Tree for example, I see them in your sig) ... then we can compare.Smile
Back to Top
Angelo View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13244
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 07:33
I have to re-rip, my Ayreon files predate the move to Ogg. Will get back to you in about half an hour.


ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]
Back to Top
Angelo View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13244
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 08:23
MP3-1 WinAmp MP3 Encoder (v1.32, licensed from Fraunhofer)
VBR J-Stereo
VBR min 128
VBR max 192
VBR Q 0 (high)

Ogg-1 Winamp Ogg Vorbis Encoder (Archer B10)
Quality 6.01 (approx 192 kbps)

MP3-1 WinAmp MP3 Encoder (v1.32, licensed from Fraunhofer)
VBR J-Stereo
VBR min 160
VBR max 192
VBR Q 0 (high)

Ogg-1 Winamp Ogg Vorbis Encoder (Archer B10)
Quality 5.60 (approx 192 kbps)

Subject: Ayreon - Into the Electric Castle CD1

Title                                 | MP3-1 size    | Ogg-1 size  | MP3-2 size | Ogg-2 size
--------------------------------------+---------------+-------------+------------+-------------
Welcome to the New Dimension          |   4,202,496   |  4,535,356  |  4,202,496 |  4,117,478
Isis and Osiris                       |  15,204,352   | 18,220,643  | 15,222,784 | 16,662,587
Amazing Flight                        |  14,196,736   | 16,284,541  | 14,200,832 | 14,876,558
Time Beyond Time                      |   8,359,936   |  9,974,550  |  9,974,550 |  9,120,317
The Decision Tree (We're Alive)       |   8,896,512   |  9,947,402  |  9,947,402 |  9,040,160
Tunnel of Light                       |   5,451,776   |  7,032,398  |  7,032,495 |  6,464,889
Across the Rainbow Bridge             |   8,728,576   |  9,317,635  |  9,317,706 |  8,485,498


Explanation:
I created two sets of files for both formats, with slightly different settings. Reason is that after creating the first two sets, I was surprised to see that the Ogg files were bigger. First I thought the reason was the minimum bit-rate setting (128 vs. 160), but that didn't fix the issue.
Then I recalled having created Oggs with oggdropXP in the past (don't recall this version). A quick check learned that my presumed Q6 files were encoded at 180kbps avg, while the Ogg-1 series above is encoded at 192kpbs avg. Apparently the definitions of what Q6 means vary between
apps.  So my size remark relates to MP3-1 compared to Ogg-2, and as you can see the two larger and more varying pieces seem to be significantly larger in Ogg.  What's interesting to note is that the bitrate display in WinAmp shows values ranging from approx 140 up to 250 in the first 2 minutes of Isis and Osiris.


Interesting topic, any interest in performing more experiments?


Edited by Angelo - January 27 2007 at 08:24
ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]
Back to Top
Angelo View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13244
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 08:27
Hmmm. This gets more interesting by the minute - almost all Oggs are bigger than I thought???? Confused

Oh well, size doesn't matter that much, the sound is great and that's what I was after.


Edited by Angelo - January 27 2007 at 08:28
ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21199
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 15:28
I'm curious ... why are you limiting the VBR range that much? I use 64-320 (Q 0) ... and since I had to re-rip the album, I expanded it to 32-320:

Title                                 | Lame VBR-MTRH 32-320 j-stereo Q 0
--------------------------------------+---------------+-------------+------------+-------------
Welcome to the New Dimension          |  5,654 KB
Isis and Osiris                       | 22,108 KB
Amazing Flight                        | 19,482 KB
Time Beyond Time                      | 11,866 KB
The Decision Tree (We're Alive)       | 11,462 KB
Tunnel of Light                       |  7,834 KB
Across the Rainbow Bridge             | 12,180 KB

Back to Top
Angelo View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13244
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2007 at 15:51
Good point. I might as well do that. Once I started with MP3, and wanted to optimize on speed and quality - so I ended up with 128-192 VBR. I simply stuck with that when I moved to Ogg. The sound was ok for me so I didn't bother. Thanks for waking me up... Big%20smile

BTW: looks like we run into this definition of Q levels again, in WinAmp the best quality for Ogg is Q 10, not Q 0.


Edited by Angelo - January 27 2007 at 16:05
ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]
Back to Top
ebag7125 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 21 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2007 at 20:43
how's AAC compared to mp3?\
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.227 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.