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Logos
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 2383
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:08 |
This supposed god can not be observed in any way; so yes, as sleeper said, it's just irrelevant to anything that goes on in real life.
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toolsofthetrade
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 09 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 151
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:13 |
Sean Trane wrote:
oliverstoned wrote:
"This atheist is not opposed to the idea of a deity/creator, but there is no chance of it happening. And if there was one, he would destroy his "oeuvre" just seeing those speaking in his name" Hi Sean! Could you please develop that? |
Sure (although I do not have that much time)
If God existed (in the way religions see God as a so-called good entity), we can be sure that he would hate being adored and prayed upon. And certainly he would hate those helping their cause by using cheating, deceiving, lying, converting, using violence and other means to enforces rules he obviously does not care for. Those 10 commendments existed well before Moses wrote them down (even those relating to gods), since they are the base of communal/societal life, that even monkeys uses (but have not written down[IMG]height=17 alt=Wink src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>). It is the ABC of living together. The rest is crap added.
Now this "creator" of the universe (provided there is less than one chance in a zillion he exists), has created thousands of galaxies,suns and planets, where life probably exists in forms we do not even imagine (for all we know mineral life could exists in other places and the Uranium atom being the most common element in that form of life >> just try to imagine that there is more chance of this happening than a creator existing[IMG]height=17 alt=Wink src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>) light years appart. Do you actually think, this creator would care what happens on this planet, and certainly take time to talk to a few chosen ones?
Or are those claiming they talk to the creator simply not trying to mystify others and using this "fact" as a way to promote himself and up his profile to get advantages and imposes rules that make him the benefeciary or at least puthim in a central position and hand out advices that should be followed since he has the answers. This was the case from the early religions or shamanism days when the shamans said that volcanoes were gods being angry at the community because they were not obeying what the shaman was preaching, thus invoking fears. And the using of fears and superstitions from the phenomenons one does not understand is creating a power that the religious are all too quick to use. Andthose opposing a different view, were usually put to death or at least banned.
Thoose talking to god are generally highly suspicious to me (and not just in the "why them?" mode, but also in does the creator even have a capacity to communicate to his subjects), which does not mean that religious people are a threat in itself.
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Could you please explain why it is you believe the existence of God to be so improbable? (like, one in a zillion).
The rest of your argument deals with different interpretations of god, but does nothing to add weight to the argument there is no god.
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:16 |
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:20 |
Think I prefer Cynic over Atheist any day.
Seriously though, atheist is a safe, logically "correct" way of life for people who have not understood the actual point of being religious. I am pretty tired of these discussions, but once again, religion isn't science, it can not be measured or observed as an existing phenomenon visible and felt by the senses. Obviously, the empiricists here are not supposed to find God, by their definition, but do have the respect and tolerance for those who have.
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sig
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:22 |
Trickster F. wrote:
Think I prefer Cynic over Atheist any day.
Seriously though, atheist is a safe, logically "correct" way of life for people who have not understood the actual point of being religious.
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No it isn't.
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kazansky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 24 2006
Location: Indonesia
Status: Offline
Points: 5085
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:25 |
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The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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Logos
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 2383
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:26 |
Trickster F. wrote:
Seriously though, atheist is a safe, logically "correct" way of life for people who have not understood the actual point of being religious. |
Not being religious does not equal to not understanding the point of being religious. I was strongly religious for several years earlier in my life, so I know exactly what it's about, which is also exactly why I'm an agnostic today. But people are different.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:28 |
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:35 |
Logos wrote:
Trickster F. wrote:
Seriously though, atheist is a safe, logically "correct" way of life for people who have not understood the actual point of being religious. |
Not being religious does not equal to not understanding the point of being religious.
I was strongly religious for several years earlier in my life, so I know exactly what it's about, which is also exactly why I'm an agnostic today. But people are different.
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Sure, every man decides his path. I should have phrased this differently, but what I said is the most common case. I feel the biggest mistake atheists make is assume that God is a limitation for free spirited men, and religion is a way to keep people ignorant and stubborn (okay, I know enough religious people who fit in well in this stereotype), developing the "crowd effect" (not sure what it's called in English, just a quick own translation from my mother tongue) - and that is hardly the truth. Anyway, religion is a useless subject for conversation and should not be talked about. I am surprised we have threads full of many pages of responses, but has even one person changed his mind?
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20403
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:37 |
toolsofthetrade wrote:
I wonder how long it will take for someone to bring up the whole `religion is the cause of all wars' argument |
toolsofthetrade wrote:
Could you please explain why it is you believe the existence of God to be so improbable? (like, one in a zillion).
The rest of your argument deals with different interpretations of god, but does nothing to add weight to the argument there is no god.
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Well it is simpler to talk of the god/creator fictional character, by using the literary images that religions gave him and therefore use it to dismount its existence than explaining the void or naught in the human's fear space in his brains
Simply by balancing out the chance of it happening, once you are aware of all the possibilities of the universe. The fact that the very existence of a creator is highly unklikely, knowing the the universe is simply out of control (the only creator is The Big Bang). Should there be a creator on the universe level, you'd guess he would have under control.
Should there a be a god, in terms of monotheism or human pictures of gods or deities, you'd guess that he would have the peace and those usurping his words blasted from this lowly paradise or taken his life away.
In primitive religions, most deities were feminine, but once monotheism came in so-called god was given a male role, to better control half the human race (which almost voluntary submits since it yearns to be protected in its motherhood), and keep it from the real issues of life.
Religion is all about power and those not submitting to it are therefore seen as ennemies and to be discarded.
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let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20403
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:41 |
kazansky wrote:
Trickster F. wrote:
atheist is a safe, logically "correct" way of life for people who have not understood the actual point of being religious |
though i'm not an atheist |
This is really the point. There is no point to being religious except submitting yourself to a set of beliefs that are enforced upon you and you being more or less receptive to them.
And thoise religious beliefs are nothing more than common societal life sense
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let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Logos
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 2383
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:42 |
Trickster F. wrote:
I feel the biggest mistake atheists make is assume that God is a limitation for free spirited men, and religion is a way to keep people ignorant and stubborn (okay, I know enough religious people who fit in well in this stereotype), developing the "crowd effect" (not sure what it's called in English, just a quick own translation from my mother tongue) - and that is hardly the truth. Anyway, religion is a useless subject for conversation and should not be talked about. I am surprised we have threads full of many pages of responses, but has even one person changed his mind? |
I feel it is important to make a clear difference between faith and religion. I'm against organized religion. It makes people blind.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:43 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Religion is all about power and those not submitting to it are therefore seen as ennemies and to be discarded. |
So true, look at the Catholic Church, dominates the Christian World, has tried to dominate the whole world, has immense wealth and power and is lead by a man who is supposed to be Gods rep on Earth! Thank God England overthrew thw shacles of Vatican law, one thing I've always admired Henry VIII for, weven if he did do it for personal reasons. Now iot seems its Islams turn to try and gain world domination.
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kazansky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 24 2006
Location: Indonesia
Status: Offline
Points: 5085
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:43 |
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The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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eugene
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 30 2005
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 2703
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:46 |
Logos wrote:
I feel it is important to make a clear difference between faith and religion. I'm against organized religion. It makes people blind.
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Exactly! IMO Religion and subsequently Church is an institute of power, while Faith is the system of Believes. There is a big difference between The Believer and Religious person.
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carefulwiththataxe
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:49 |
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kazansky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 24 2006
Location: Indonesia
Status: Offline
Points: 5085
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 08:59 |
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The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 09:02 |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 09:02 |
Being atheist/agnostic shows a narrow minded and
down-to-earth state of mind, but being religious is the adhesion to a dogma which, unfortunatly, has not much to do with spirituality.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: December 28 2006 at 09:03 |
oliverstoned wrote:
Being atheist/agnostic shows a narrow minded and
down-to-earth state of mind
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Down to earth maybe, narrow minded, no not true.
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