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Easy Livin 
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 Topic: Neal Morse's new album "Sola Scriptura"
Posted: December 22 2006 at 10:27 |
This is becoming a discussion not related to music.
I can appreciate that Morse's religious belief's can lead to such an overlap, but if the discussion continues to stray from the specific piece of news announced here, the thread will be closed with an invitation to start/continue the discussion in the appropriate section.
By the way, Jody's actions were spot on, we have our own set of standards and rules for the forum. I appreciate that the lyrics were quoted in support of a discussion point, but that does not make them any less offensive.
Cheers.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 22 2006 at 00:51 |
 The T wrote:
man did this get off hand!.. The state hasn't ruled that is agaist the law to PRAISE God in public spaces.... it's illegal STATE-sponsored praising, lest it show any preference for any particular religion. Let's call black black and white white:
Not true:
| Student religious clubs: If the school receives federal funds, then it must obey the federal Equal Access Act of 1984. Students are free to organize Bible study and other religious special interest clubs if any other secular clubs are allowed. The school may prohibit religious clubs, but only if it prohibits all student groups. |
Sounds fair but:
| A decision is expected by 2001-JUN from the U.S. Supreme Court in a curious case involving the rental of school facilities. A Fundamentalist Christian group was refused permission to rent school facilities. The policy is to rent rooms for "social, civic, and recreational meetings and entertainment events and other uses," but not to religious groups. It seems like such an open and shut case: the school must rent to all groups or none, and cannot discriminate on the basis of religion. But the federal trial judge and the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals both ruled against the club. |
So the law and courts admit to ban prayers despite the Constitution clearly states the contraty.
I don't like Fundamentalist groups, I believe after all of what I said it's obvious, but if everything else is allowed, there's no reason to ban prayers.
I find more logic in banning apoloigetic messages of violence and homicide.
Iván
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The T
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 23:11 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The T wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
This post has made my point more than all the quotes, if a free forum considers some lyrics offensive, why shouldn't society ban them equally?
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This forum is private property; it's like a tv network that decides not to broadcast a program, it's the network's choice; if every citizen personally chooses not to listen rap music, that would be heaven, great, a wonder of wonders. BUT NO STATE OR EVEN LESS, ORGANIZED RELIGION, I don't want them telling me what to choose from....
WEll, the state is already telling everybody that it's against law to praise God in Public places, so don't blame Religion.
Why can't the state consider that aguy asking to kill policemen is banned?
man did this get off hand!.. The state hasn't ruled that is agaist the law to PRAISE God in public spaces.... it's illegal STATE-sponsored praising, lest it show any preference for any particular religion. Let's call black black and white white: this is part of the "political correctness" campaign started due to pressure of the jewish community (please, I'm NOT RACIST, I'M JUST MENTIONING FACTS) because that community has such a tremendous power in the States and, maybe with some reason, they felt excluded when everywhere what was set as rule was christian facts and myths and celebrations... that's also the main reason behind the "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas" campaign that today is so criticized by many (me including) in the US.....
The first ammendment of the US Constitution guarantees freedom of speech... I could go to a public square and pray to GOD and none could jail me for illegality (maybe, due to outside pressure, they would cleverly find a reason like "disturbing social peace" to do it).... Hey, there's even nazis and aryan organizations here! Freedom of speech is the rule, and with THAT ONE I agree, so that's why f the police is not banned... now if you GO AND KILL A cop, well, you'll face the consequences (the hardest ever, i may predict)
give the choices, give people the choices, they'll choose what they want, we ARE NO SHEEPS. Or, well, as in religion, maybe there are some that want us to be sheep.
The base of Religion is freedom of choice, there's no merit in saying you believe in God if you really didn't choose that option, so Religion is pure freedom.
Couldn't agree more. But remember, not everyone has your knowledge, some people can TOO EASILY be directed into doing what other people want them to.... So is in the interest of the state not to appear as sponsoring so.
We can make our own minds. Of course children can't; so let's control the distribution of such "music" (there's no music to be found there) and, better yet, let's educate our children better. PARENTS should educate children, not SOCIETY.
Then praising God wherever you want should also be accepted...Equal circumstances deserve equal rights.
Of course! What am I saying! But religion-classes in school, when those classes are not optative but MANDATORY PART OF THE curriculum, well, that is against that equality.... remember: it was only christianity what was told, not jewish religion or islam or whatever... again, is a question of the state not sponsoring just ONE creed, not FAVORING one creed.
It's like the battle against drugs: the "punitive" school of thought thinks the best solution is to punish, to avoid future recurrence; how disastrous results have been!
So drugs must be legal? Drug dealers shouldn't be sent to prison?
No, no, no. I'm talking about the CONSUMER part of the deal. Please don't misrepresent my words, I haven't said such an atrocity. Maybe I didn't make myself clearer: the CONSUMER SIDE of the affair. Instead of thinking putting every addict to jail is the solution (which is clearly not), better TRY TO EDUCATE OUR CHILDREN TO SAY NO... that is easier than going against forces YOU WON'T EVER DEFEAT. Put the resources to good use, to WORTHY use.
You have to TEACH, EDUCATE, NOT PUT IN A CAGE. That's the best weapon against such disgusting manifestation of, well, I don't know what rap is. But I prefer to live in a society where such an atrocity CAN EXIST, that one where "moral authorities" tell me what to do, how to do it, when to do it.
Why don't you complain when the same society tells you where you can or can not pray? Isn't this exactly the same case?
Society may tell me that praying somewhere is inadequate, but society doesn't tell me WHOM TO PRAY TO. It may tell me "please, do it at home better than in a public place", it may (though, as I said, inconstitutional it may be), it doesn't tell me "pray to GOD", or "pray to Alah", or "pray to Jah" or whatever deity.... if we forbid people to say what they think (even if that is I HATE THE POLICE AND WANT THEM DEAD) is like saying "you CAN'T THINK THIS WAY".
That would be living 1984 all over again, but this time not because of a communist party (Ingsoc) but a religious organization.
Again, Religion is already banned from public places, and my rejection to people telling others how to kill a cop is not religious, it's concern about public safety.
You're right. I agree. I wouldn't let my kid buy straight outta compton at least until he's old enough to discern the difference between what a group of guys think and A MESSAGE TELLING YOU to go kill a cop... but when he's old enough, when he's past letting crap influence his acts, I CAN'T tell him what to listen to... is HIS freedom.
And so is OURS. If NWA want to kill a cop, ok, good for them. It's not my problem. My problem would be when the state tells me "if you listen to the guys that want to kill a cop, you're fried"
All with the utmost respect to your creed. To all creeds. (except the band )
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 22:29 |
The T wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
This post has made my point more than all the quotes, if a free forum considers some lyrics offensive, why shouldn't society ban them equally?
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This forum is private property; it's like a tv network that decides not to broadcast a program, it's the network's choice; if every citizen personally chooses not to listen rap music, that would be heaven, great, a wonder of wonders. BUT NO STATE OR EVEN LESS, ORGANIZED RELIGION, I don't want them telling me what to choose from....
WEll, the state is already telling everybody that it's against law to praise God in Public places, so don't blame Religion.
Why can't the state consider that aguy asking to kill policemen is banned?
give the choices, give people the choices, they'll choose what they want, we ARE NO SHEEPS. Or, well, as in religion, maybe there are some that want us to be sheep.
The base of Religion is freedom of choice, there's no merit in saying you believe in God if you really didn't choose that option, so Religion is pure freedom.
We can make our own minds. Of course children can't; so let's control the distribution of such "music" (there's no music to be found there) and, better yet, let's educate our children better. PARENTS should educate children, not SOCIETY.
Then praising God wherever you want should also be accepted...Equal circumstances deserve equal rights.
It's like the battle against drugs: the "punitive" school of thought thinks the best solution is to punish, to avoid future recurrence; how disastrous results have been!
So drugs must be legal? Drug dealers shouldn't be sent to prison?
You have to TEACH, EDUCATE, NOT PUT IN A CAGE. That's the best weapon against such disgusting manifestation of, well, I don't know what rap is. But I prefer to live in a society where such an atrocity CAN EXIST, that one where "moral authorities" tell me what to do, how to do it, when to do it.
Why don't you complain when the same society tells you where you can or can not pray? Isn't this exactly the same case?
That would be living 1984 all over again, but this time not because of a communist party (Ingsoc) but a religious organization.
Again, Religion is already banned from public places, and my rejection to people telling others how to kill a cop is not religious, it's concern about public safety.
Iván |
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The T
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 21:32 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
This post has made my point more than all the quotes, if a free forum considers some lyrics offensive, why shouldn't society ban them equally?
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This forum is private property; it's like a tv network that decides not to broadcast a program, it's the network's choice; if every citizen personally chooses not to listen rap music, that would be heaven, great, a wonder of wonders. BUT NO STATE OR EVEN LESS, ORGANIZED RELIGION, I don't want them telling me what to choose from.... give the choices, give people the choices, they'll choose what they want, we ARE NO SHEEPS. Or, well, as in religion, maybe there are some that want us to be sheep. We can make our own minds. Of course children can't; so let's control the distribution of such "music" (there's no music to be found there) and, better yet, let's educate our children better. PARENTS should educate children, not SOCIETY. It's like the battle against drugs: the "punitive" school of thought thinks the best solution is to punish, to avoid future recurrence; how disastrous results have been! You have to TEACH, EDUCATE, NOT PUT IN A CAGE. That's the best weapon against such disgusting manifestation of, well, I don't know what rap is. But I prefer to live in a society where such an atrocity CAN EXIST, that one where "moral authorities" tell me what to do, how to do it, when to do it. That would be living 1984 all over again, but this time not because of a communist party (Ingsoc) but a religious organization.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 16:30 |
TheProgtologist wrote:
I have deleted every post that quoted these lyrics.Not edited,deleted.The admin team finds the content of those lyrics highly offensive and do not wish to see any more of them posted.To everyone who quoted them,I am sorry your well thought out posts were deleted,but there were simply too many,and you all should know better than to quote something that offensive anyway. |
This post has made my point more than all the quotes, if a free forum considers some lyrics offensive, why shouldn't society ban them equally?
The thread went this way because I mentioned that intolerant or propáganda lyrics are not the best option for art, somebody implied that sensationalist lawyers create this false morality about Rap.
| The reason Rap is always the target of moralising news pundits and sensationalists lawyers is because of it's popularity with the mainstream. |
Seems by the quoted post that not only sensationalist lawyers have something against Gangsta Rap lyrics, they are offensive "per se" and we're not talking about a false morality.
I apologized for the quotes in the moment I quoted them, but if somebody says lyrics are harmless I need to prove why I disagree and what better way than to copy and paste the "harmless" lyrics without adding a single word.
I find them offensive of course and said it from the start, I agree with them being delete, but without quoting them in the first place, it was impossible to prove that the message involved in songs can be dangerous, violent and offensive.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 21 2006 at 16:43
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The Wizard
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 16:26 |
Drew wrote:
^^Well, judging by your picture sig- Im not suprosed you feel that way  |
Hey, i'm not against any religion, it's a joke. If it was a concept album about any other religion then I would find it just as ridiculous.
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TheProgtologist
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 16:18 |
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I have deleted every post that quoted these lyrics.Not edited,deleted.The admin team finds the content of those lyrics highly offensive and do not wish to see any more of them posted.To everyone who quoted them,I am sorry your well thought out posts were deleted,but there were simply too many,and you all should know better than to quote something that offensive anyway.
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TheProgtologist
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 16:00 |
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I have to close this.All the posting of the rap lyrics bothers me,particularly the abundance of the N word and derogatory and insulting terms for females.
I don't care if it's in a rap lyric,and that it ends with an "a" instead of an "er",it all means the same thing,and it violates forum rules and guidelines.Plus,this topic is featured on the front page.
If all you guys didn't INSIST and quoting them over and over I could delete the posts,but to do so now would ruin the continuity of the thread.
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Drew
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 15:59 |
^^Well, judging by your picture sig- Im not suprosed you feel that way
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The Wizard
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 15:58 |
The concept behind this album is one of the most pretentious things I have ever heard.
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Drew
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 15:55 |
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he is putting rap lyrics in his album?!?!?!?! what?
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TheProgtologist
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 15:53 |
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I am really looking forward to this release,Neal just gets better and better with each album.
It's weird to read this thread about Morse and see how it wanders,I can understand religion being discussed in the topic but what is with all the rap lyrics?
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Drew
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 15:47 |
Howe Protege wrote:
Wow 2007 is shaping up to be great
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for shizzle. 
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infandous
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 15:44 |
Well, I personally am going to get this album. And I'm not Christian at all. I had initially had misgivings about listening to "preachy" music, but overall, Neals stuff really is not pushing any kind of message on you. There is a message, and it is a pretty Christian specific one, but it's not as if he is trying to brainwash into being Christian. At least, that is my impression of his solo works. Frankly, I like the music he makes, I like Portnoys drumming, and I like epic songs. So this album is looking pretty good to me  (p.s. Ivan, they don't allow kids to listen to Snoop Dog in public schools in the US either, as far as I know  )
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Howe Protege
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 00:21 |
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Wow 2007 is shaping up to be great
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My favorite pasty faced British pal.
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stonebeard
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 22:04 |
"We're not Gonna Take It" is a good song.  I have no idea what else they did though.....
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 22:02 |
Littlewashu5 wrote:
Those are pretty crappy lyrics, I'll give you that
But Popular music has always been attacked in America. In the 80's a lot of people thought Twisted Sister was too explicit. Now the Twisted Sister may not of been the most G-rated band in the universe, but they were pretty tame compared to what was posted above.
Please my friend, Twisted Sister was remotely popular because they created that campaign, their videos were precisely about the reaction they expected from people.
Nobody really remembers about Twisted Sisters except for their videos of a teacher and a father shoulting their pupils and/or son for listening their music, people never cared about TS they were just one band that vanished as easily as they appeared,
In the 60's people thought The Beatles were going to cause the downfall of society. And I'm not talking about late-60's Beatles. I'm talking about "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" Beatles. And let's not forget Elvis' "scadalous" hip-shaking on 1940's televison
By the contrary, The Beatles were seen by adults as a relief, they were always well dressed, long but cared hair, hard,y moved and sung about holding hands, they started being rejected when usoing phrases like "We're more popular than Jesus", n otther words, they used that reaction.
I agree with you about Elvis (In the 50's not in the 40's BTW), the problem was that USA white majority was extremely racist and couldn't resist seing a white man singing in a way that could only be expected from black people.
That's why Little Richard was so rejected by white community (For KKKs sake he was not only black but also gay) and their songs banned but when sung by a mediocre singer like Pat Boone they were accepted by everybody and played in white audience radios.
Yeah, it's sort of scary that lyrics posted by Ivan are considered socially acceptable. But if John Lennon couldn't bring about the downfall of civilisation, it's doubtful a guy like Snoop Dog is going to
I'm not afraid they can destroy Western society (they won't even attempt that because the Western Society is the one that allows them to exist, imagine Snoop Dog trying to publish this lyrics in a Moslem country!!!) but they cause violence in a significative percentage of teen population.
If the word God (Not Jesus, Jehowa, Allah, Buddah...the generic term GOD) is banned in schools and public places, this crap should follow the same path being that ois potentially dangerous for teens.
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 21 2006 at 00:57
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Wotgorilla
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 06:52 |
As a prog fan and a Christian (of the Protestant variety) I absolutlely love Neal Morse's solo albums, but unlike some of my Protestant colleagues I've never had any tiime for Catholic-bashing. I doubt Neal is going to go down this path, and in any case, I doubt that Inside Out Music would want to be party to religious sectarianism. But the fact is, Martin Luther was and will always remain an enormously significant figure in Christian history, despite his imperfections (including, incidentally, anti-semitism) and Neal is certainly demonstrating that his style of Christian music has a lot more thought, intellect and depth than a lot of contemporary Christian music (which I generally loathe for its lightweightness).
(By the way, Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ was a fantastic film and completely faithful to the Christian scriptures. If this film is anti-semtic, you may as well say that the Christian Bible is anti-semitic).
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"Thru the darkest age we can surely fly, thru the darkest age with the Fist of Fire"
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 02:22 |
One only point, you and me are capable of knowing this is crap designed to sell, but minors take what their idols say in a different way, this rapper is cool, if they want to be cool they will try to emulate him.
Violence has to be stopped IMHO, I believe in freedom, but there are limits for everything.
Lets move this interesting debate to another forum next time, because Neal Morse's thread will be closed and there's people who like their music.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 20 2006 at 02:26
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Neal Morse's new album "Sola Scriptura"
