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toolis
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Topic: concept albums Posted: December 13 2006 at 01:26 |
last night i was reading Jim Matheos' interview (guitarist, lyricist, composer, mastermind, Fates Warning/OSI) in Greek Metal Hammer magazine and the last question was why every prog band must have at least one concept album (he was refering to A Pleasant Shade Of Gray)... and Jim answered: "cause we, prog musicians, are pretentious, pompous, egomaniacs..." !!!!???!!!??!!!
now, the interview was of course translated in Greek so i re-translated in English so i can't be sure about the exact words of his but that was pretty much his point..
and it wasn't mentioned whether he was smiling or being dead serious, so....
anyway, i thought it would be sth to discuss...
if you ask me, i love concept albums, i think that it's sth really difficult to achieve and even if i don't like the album very much, i admire the musicians they worked on it... "A Pleasant Shade Of Gray", "Dead Winter Dead", "Operation: Mindcrime" and so many more are fav LPs of mine..
as far as Matheos' opinion is concerned, i'm pretty sure that many bands think of creating a concept album being inspired by former masterpieces but i believe they approach the idea with great respect and really work their a**es off for releasing it properly...
however, such effort demands talent, inspiration, patience and not all can do it..to my recollection, i can't remember of any ridiculous, unworthy released prog concept...
anyway, what do you think?
Edited by toolis - December 13 2006 at 01:27
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Prometheus
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 02:20 |
well, as far as i can tell the question over just how pretentious prog artists are is the main question on the PA boards, and oddly enough its always an external source that triggers the debate, as it is here.
to me, it seems that the problem of concept albums stems from the different approaches to music; most prog bands, and fans, consider music to be an art form whereas the general public does not, they consider it a way to have fun (not trying to be diminuitive here...although i ussually would be). a concept album is simply a way of further developing the art and so if one doesnt recognize the art at all, then it gets looped together with common progish w**kery.
nevertheless, alot of concept albums dont quite make the cut, as i see it. often they arent artistic enough and thus drag the artist's music down. to be honest, i havent heard the examples you've cited (but my roomate did laugh at "operation:mindcrime"), so i cant judge them. to me, though, good concept albums are like Dredg's "El Cielo" where the concept is there, but not smacking you in the face repeatedly; for even more deaply hidden concepts i'd cite TMV and thier first two albums. but then, albums that do wear thier concepts on thier sleeve can be awesome, it is all a matter of what that concept is and how stylishly it is employed. take Mastodon, not only does each album have a concept, but thier entire discography is a concept (the elements...fire, water, earth...). Or the big one, Tool's Lateralus (re-sequencing, fibonnacci singing, concept drum beats, commissioned artwork) which i think is incredible.
like everything, the concept album must be used stylishly..not simply for the sake of using it.
i wonder if Chaucer was told he was being pretentious in attempting "The Cantrbury Tales", or Boccaccio and his "Decameron".
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Prometheus
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 02:28 |
oh, as for a failed concept album one might consider "Ghost Reveries" by Opeth, because, as much as i love the album (despite hating most of the lyrics ("i hear the baying of the hounds...")) it fails to use it's concept well. obviously there is a concept afoot, actually i think that one of the songs is exempt from it, but i feel that it doesnt add anything at all. i couldnt even really name it except for the fact that it relies heavily on gothic imagery. since most people can't understand the growling (indeed, most of you would strip them of that awesome growl) we can't understand the lyrics, and thus the concept. it adds nothing, and so it fails. if anyone can elighten me more on the album concept and prove that it is working, then please do so.
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Losendos
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 03:06 |
As one of the people who has pointed out some of overblown, overambitious , indulgent and pretentious efforts of our prog heroes I'd say in defense of our prog musicians that the concept album is a challenge that the artist is game to take up. If he meets the challenge he is a superhero but if his results are less it will seem they have their heads up their asses. So it is a bold move.In general though an album around a theme would seem superior to an album of random tracks
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enteredwinter
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 03:23 |
Mostly, I would say it is not pretentious to release a concept album.
One example that I think could be argued to be pretentious is Pain of Salvation's Be.
The album is like a Ph.D. thesis set to music, complete with reciting of population statistics, phone calls to "the answering machine of God", not to mention the general theme of telling the story of all humanity's history within a single CD. Oh, and there's an orchestra called "The Orchestra of Eternity".
There's a lot of good music in that album, and I generally have a lot of respect for everything Gildenlow creates. However, if there ever was a prototypical "pretentious prog concept album", that has to be it.
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enteredwinter
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 03:29 |
Prometheus wrote:
oh, as for a failed concept album one might consider "Ghost Reveries" by Opeth
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Ghost Reveries is not a concept album. There was some good insight on this in the documentary on the re-released version's DVD. Mikael wanted it to be a concept album at first, but then he wrote Isolation Years, realized it didn't fit the concept, and included it anyway. By the time the album was released, the song-order and lyrics were jumbled up to the point where there was no unifying concept that could be logically followed throughout. Sure, there are some repeating ideas, but it can't be called a "failed concept album", because it isn't a concept album.
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toolis
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 03:33 |
enteredwinter wrote:
Mostly, I would say it is not pretentious to release a concept album. One example that I think could be argued to be pretentious is Pain of Salvation's Be.The album is like a Ph.D. thesis set to music, complete with reciting of population statistics, phone calls to "the answering machine of God", not to mention the general theme of telling the story of all humanity's history within a single CD. Oh, and there's an orchestra called "The Orchestra of Eternity".There's a lot of good music in that album, and I generally have a lot of respect for everything Gildenlow creates. However, if there ever was a prototypical "pretentious prog concept album", that has to be it.
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well, i don't know if i agree with that cause i read one of Daniel's interview the time PoS were releasing "Be" and he said he had studied philosophy and talked really passionately about the concept and generally didn't sound pretentious at all...
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sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...
-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
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sularetal
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 06:17 |
I wouldn't really say pretentious. I think ambitious is the right word.
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progadicto
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 06:26 |
sularetal wrote:
I wouldn't really say pretentious. I think ambitious is the right word. |
A recent thread toiches the same topic: Are prog music pretentious??... I agree with you not just for the word "ambitious"... If prog musicians wouldn't be pretentious/ambitious maybe prog music couldn't exist so... go on, prog musicians!! Be pretentious!! Be ambitious!! That's one of the ways to create great music!!!
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... E N E L B U N K E R...
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sleeper
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 08:49 |
Personally I like concept albums. The use of a story can enhance the music, give it extra meaning, like in PoS's The Perfect Element, while at other times an album canget too bogged down in the concept and loose its way, like The Wall.
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tdbark
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 14:38 |
Some of the best moments in Prog music comes out of concept albums: the one that stands out for me is "Animals." In my opinion, it is one of Pink Floyd's best efforts and the concept (Animal Farm/equating humans to animals) works perfectly. Now some, like Genesis' "Duke," fail because even the band doesn't buy totally into the concept, creating a very uneven work.
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heyitsthatguy
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 19:12 |
enteredwinter wrote:
Prometheus wrote:
oh, as for a failed concept album one might consider "Ghost Reveries" by Opeth
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Ghost Reveries is not a concept album. There was some good insight on this in the documentary on the re-released version's DVD.
Mikael wanted it to be a concept album at first, but then he wrote Isolation Years, realized it didn't fit the concept, and included it anyway. By the time the album was released, the song-order and lyrics were jumbled up to the point where there was no unifying concept that could be logically followed throughout.
Sure, there are some repeating ideas, but it can't be called a "failed concept album", because it isn't a concept album.
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I always thought I followed the story, I guess now I really don't ![Embarrassed](smileys/smiley9.gif) and Still Life is another Opeth concept album, which I think conceptually was executed better lyrically. Also, I have only slight trouble at times understainding Akerfeldt's growls, I usually find him quite coherent ![Big smile](smileys/smiley4.gif) also, I never could figure out the concept behind APSOG. Could anyone explain? ![Smile](smileys/smiley1.gif)
Edited by heyitsthatguy - December 13 2006 at 19:13
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sleeper
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 19:37 |
heyitsthatguy wrote:
enteredwinter wrote:
Prometheus wrote:
oh, as for a failed concept album one might consider "Ghost Reveries" by Opeth
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Ghost Reveries is not a concept album. There was some good insight on this in the documentary on the re-released version's DVD.
Mikael wanted it to be a concept album at first, but then he wrote Isolation Years, realized it didn't fit the concept, and included it anyway. By the time the album was released, the song-order and lyrics were jumbled up to the point where there was no unifying concept that could be logically followed throughout.
Sure, there are some repeating ideas, but it can't be called a "failed concept album", because it isn't a concept album.
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I always thought I followed the story, I guess now I really don't![Embarrassed](smileys/smiley9.gif)
and Still Life is another Opeth concept album, which I think conceptually was executed better lyrically. Also, I have only slight trouble at times understainding Akerfeldt's growls, I usually find him quite coherent![Big smile](smileys/smiley4.gif)
also, I never could figure out the concept behind APSOG. Could anyone explain?![Smile](smileys/smiley1.gif)
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I get the feeling that its a love song, but its better to treat it as one whole song rather than 12.
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decypher
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 19:45 |
Abigail, Dimension Hätross and Operation Mindcrime are masterpieces!
otherwise - I don´t care.
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el böthy
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Posted: December 13 2006 at 21:24 |
enteredwinter wrote:
Prometheus wrote:
oh, as for a failed concept album one might consider "Ghost Reveries" by Opeth
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Ghost Reveries is not a concept album. There was some good insight on this in the documentary on the re-released version's DVD.
Mikael wanted it to be a concept album at first, but then he wrote Isolation Years, realized it didn't fit the concept, and included it anyway. By the time the album was released, the song-order and lyrics were jumbled up to the point where there was no unifying concept that could be logically followed throughout.
Sure, there are some repeating ideas, but it can't be called a "failed concept album", because it isn't a concept album.
| Yes, but did you noticed the title in the booklet? "Ghost reveries an observation by Opeth"...doesnt that ring any bells? jejejej Just like KC did with their first 4 albums and also Power to belive, they are not concept albums but most songs have a certain lyrical conection and a main theme might be all over the album, even though it might not be as strong as to call it a concept. Generally, I love this albums, as they are not concept albums (which sometimes can have amazing storys...but really, if you are just going to talk about a murdered woman and a man who has flashbacks about here...save it jajaja), while this albums are not as "pretentious" as the actual concept albums, they are equally ambitious. And for one, if the theme is not strong enough it doesnt ruin the result...while I think a bad concept ruins the album, big time, and I can´t not pay atention to what the song is about, know its crap and move on...no lord...no I can not, God knows I cant...jejeje
Ah and...I think Be kicks so much ass!!!
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Trky_Lym
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Posted: December 14 2006 at 00:30 |
Concept albums are the shiznat! Kraftwerk, Pink Floyd, yum.
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toolis
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Posted: December 14 2006 at 02:51 |
heyitsthatguy wrote:
enteredwinter wrote:
Prometheus wrote:
oh, as for a failed concept album one might consider "Ghost Reveries" by Opeth
| Ghost Reveries is not a concept album. There was some good insight on this in the documentary on the re-released version's DVD.Mikael wanted it to be a concept album at first, but then he wrote Isolation Years, realized it didn't fit the concept, and included it anyway. By the time the album was released, the song-order and lyrics were jumbled up to the point where there was no unifying concept that could be logically followed throughout.Sure, there are some repeating ideas, but it can't be called a "failed concept album", because it isn't a concept album. | I always thought I followed the story, I guess now I really don't and Still Life is another Opeth concept album, which I think conceptually was executed better lyrically. Also, I have only slight trouble at times understainding Akerfeldt's growls, I usually find him quite coherent also, I never could figure out the concept behind APSOG. Could anyone explain?![](alt=) |
it's a real time concept, that is, it's sby's thoughts during a day... there are a lot of things going on, love story, disappointment, isolation... it's really personal...
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sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...
-sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue...
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dedokras
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Posted: December 14 2006 at 05:09 |
tdbark wrote:
Some of the best moments in Prog music comes out of concept albums: the one that stands out for me is "Animals." In my opinion, it is one of Pink Floyd's best efforts and the concept (Animal Farm/equating humans to animals) works perfectly. Now some, like Genesis' "Duke," fail because even the band doesn't buy totally into the concept, creating a very uneven work. |
Totally agree, I am even close to thinking Animals is the best album ever.
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toolsofthetrade
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Posted: December 14 2006 at 07:19 |
el böthy wrote:
enteredwinter wrote:
Prometheus wrote:
oh, as for a failed concept album one might consider "Ghost Reveries" by Opeth
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Ghost Reveries is not a concept album. There was some good insight on this in the documentary on the re-released version's DVD.
Mikael wanted it to be a concept album at first, but then he wrote Isolation Years, realized it didn't fit the concept, and included it anyway. By the time the album was released, the song-order and lyrics were jumbled up to the point where there was no unifying concept that could be logically followed throughout.
Sure, there are some repeating ideas, but it can't be called a "failed concept album", because it isn't a concept album.
|
Yes, but did you noticed the title in the booklet? "Ghost reveries an observation by Opeth"...doesnt that ring any bells? jejejej Just like KC did with their first 4 albums and also Power to belive, they are not concept albums but most songs have a certain lyrical conection and a main theme might be all over the album, even though it might not be as strong as to call it a concept. Generally, I love this albums, as they are not concept albums (which sometimes can have amazing storys...but really, if you are just going to talk about a murdered woman and a man who has flashbacks about here...save it jajaja), while this albums are not as "pretentious" as the actual concept albums, they are equally ambitious. And for one, if the theme is not strong enough it doesnt ruin the result...while I think a bad concept ruins the album, big time, and I can´t not pay atention to what the song is about, know its crap and move on...no lord...no I can not, God knows I cant...jejeje
Ah and...I think Be kicks so much ass!!!![Evil Smile](smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Why do you keep putting jejeje's and jajaja's in your posts?
Anyway, just because it says `ghost reveries an observation by opeth', doesn't mean it's a concept album - if i recall correctly, there's similar things to that in every opeth album, it's like a neat little novelty thing they do instead of just saying `this album was recorded' or whatever.
Ghost reveries is like half a concept album, up until harlequin forest, i think. It's about a man who kills his mother, i think, or witnesses his mother's death, and the emotional trauma that follows.
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prog_simon
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Posted: December 15 2006 at 06:58 |
In my opinion, concept albums are often the pinnacle of prog-bands achievements. Scenes From A Memory for example. One best, if not THE best, albums made by DT.
And In Absentia, an investigation of a serial killers mind, is absolutely Porcupines best album.
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