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Topic ClosedBest Prog Lyricist

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Poll Question: Who do youconsider the best prog poet
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
5 [3.21%]
24 [15.38%]
37 [23.72%]
31 [19.87%]
17 [10.90%]
39 [25.00%]
0 [0.00%]
3 [1.92%]
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AngelRat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2004 at 16:59

I voted Peter Gabriel.

Just like some other people here I'm missing Peter Hammill. And what about Mr. Sinfield... Maybe his lyrical work on 'Islands' wasn't all that impressive but 'Epitaph'? 'Schizoid Man'?

On the other hand...Neil Peart...ahh...choices, choices...

 

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emdiar View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2004 at 17:43

Not really prog, but fave of mine has always been Roy Harper. Very often inspired and inspiring, and only sometimes dated or corny.

Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2004 at 19:35
roger waters - pink floyd
syd barrett - pink floyd
peter sinfield - king crimson
jon anderson - yes
james, john and mike - dream theater
richard and dave (occasionally) - pink floyd
maynard james keenan - tool
The Worthless Recluse
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2004 at 20:19
Up untl James Lee's ludicrous comments on Peter Hammil I had been enjoying the very accurate and pertinent posts regarding Fish and Co.As to Fish a wonderful talent.As for alluding to the great man Hammill as a girly lyricist it's the most ridiculous thing I have heard! ' Citadel reverberates to a thousand voices now dumb oh what have we become - now the immortals are here' Opening lines from 'Still Life' a truly magnificent album with truly wonderful lyrics 'and the organ monkey screams' Back to the Post for me it's Jon Anderson up until 79 before  he discovered Mother Earth and all that peace and love.Followed closely by Rael.Anderson inspired me for nigh on 9 years and for that I  greatfully thank him.He's also the best singer on the planet followed close by P.Hammill and the remarkable Mr.Gabriel.And after the bedlam came 'Soon oh soon the light'
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2004 at 21:32
Originally posted by James Lee James Lee wrote:

Hmm, no mention by anyone of either Sinfield or Palmer-James...lyricists so talented that they were band members without even playing an instrument...(IMHO Hammill's lyrics always reminded me of a weepy teenage girl writing poems in her diary. Glad to see he was passed over...)

I mentioned Pete above with Greg... James.. since they did do quite a lot of writing together.  Actually I understand they are working together again... which would be a great thing if they ever get recorded...

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2004 at 21:35

Originally posted by Useful_Idiot Useful_Idiot wrote:

...how has Greg Lake gotten two votes?

Well when you're perfect.. its hard not to have somebody voting for you....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2004 at 21:55

 

"One of my favourite lyrics is 'Still Life'. Grim, darkly comic, beautifully written, and all embracing the horror of immortality."
I hear you. my friend Blacksword, that's IMHO one of his finest lyrics, and that's very much, since 90 % of his lyrics are pure mastery (the other 10 % being 'only' great). This reflection on the horror of immortality is an eulogy on the acceptance of death as a factor that may help life to make sense and have a purpose.

That's kind of optimism hidden under a guise of apparent gloomy pessimism. 'Still Life' is actually a very optimistic album.

I admit I also forgot another great Peter, Sinfield of course. But back to Hammill - I think that he was Fish's major influence not only as a lyricist, but also as a vocalist. Fish tosses his words, a bit far from the usually delicate theatralism of Gabriel's. Fish's vocal tone is similar to that of Gabriel's (that's nature, not plagiarism), but his singing style is closer to that of Hammill's. Even Hmmill had to erase Fish's input for 'The Fall of the House of Usher' since he sounded too similar to his own input (they played different characters in this concept album).

Closer to Gabriel was Peter Nicholls in IQ's early days, but his tone was closer to that of Psychodelic Furs and Talking Heads lead singers.

I'll stop digressing. Regards.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2004 at 23:42

Where is Peter Hammill and Ian Anderson??????????????????????

Ulf

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2004 at 23:58

My vote goes to Gabriel, who else did more complex and inteligent lyrics about almost everything?

History: Can Utility and the Coastlinres

Religion: Supper's Ready

Violence and Love: Musical Box

Mithology: Fountain of Salmacis

Politics: The Knife

Gangs fights: Battle for the Eping Forest

Novelists works: White Mountain (Based in Jack London's White Fang)

Social Issues mixed with Sci Fi: Get 'Em Out By Firiday

Botanics: The Return of the Giant Hogweed

Humour: Harold the Barrel

And of course The Lamb that covers all those issues and Sci Fi.

Almost all his songs are stories that the listener can follow and keep the interest, I believe nobody ever did something similar.

Iván



Edited by ivan_2068
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2004 at 02:36

Cesar Inca : great observations there!

JamesLee : You didn't really think you'd get away with that, did you?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2004 at 05:14
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

I think most people who hear Gabriel's influence on Fish hear similarities in vocal tone rather than lyrics - Fish's lyrics owe more to Hammill, IMO. 

"...examine the shadows on the other side of morning, examine the shadows on the other side of mourning  Promised wedding now a wake" (as in funeral, but it's supposed to sound like awake to blur the two ideas).

I'm always misquoting lyrics, but these mean something to me!

 Should not have relied on my memory!! The correct words give it a significantly different meaning.

I did realise this when I played it last night

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2004 at 05:31

My vote goes to Peter Gabriel and Zappa of course.Anyone heard lyrics on Dinah-moe-humm and I'm the slime.Also I had to say that Roger Waters lyrics on The wall is really a masterpiece.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2004 at 05:46
Originally posted by zappa123 zappa123 wrote:

My vote goes to Peter Gabriel and Zappa of course.Anyone heard lyrics on Dinah-moe-humm and I'm the slime.Also I had to say that Roger Waters lyrics on The wall is really a masterpiece.

Roger Waters  I found Frank Zappa's lyrics amusing more than anything else, but to be honest I'm no expert on Zappa. I love his guitar playing. I would be surprised if there were many guitarists more skilled and versatile then he was.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2004 at 06:02

Fish writes like an angst ridden sixth form drama student. To me, his lyrics scream out "Oh, I'm so tortured and gifted and misunderstood, I should be starving in a garret somewhere in Paris."

Anderson, J., writes with a total disregard for established rules of syntax, grammar and logic (love it though! I'd rather listen to nonsense than clumsy "I'm so sensitive, pity my poor tortured soul" crap.

Waters, once descibed his own lyrics on DSOTM in much the same way as I have described Fish's lyrics above, but did himself an injustice.  The words to "Time" are about as poignant as you can get, but only after those Ten Years Have Got Behind You! My God, does it all start to make sense?!!

Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2004 at 06:21
My vote goes for P. Gabriel, but he's followed by J. Anderson and R. Waters. A lot of differences between their lyrics and I like them all. Well, someone had to win this race.
she feels wind around her
she feels a warming sun
she feels some raindrops wet her leaves
since that time she lost her griefs
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2004 at 06:29
Originally posted by emdiar emdiar wrote:

Fish writes like an angst ridden sixth form drama student.

Most angst-ridden sixth form students just write self-evident humourless junk with little or no reference to real life or themes outside of their angst.

At least Fish had the intelligence to inject a large amount of irony and understanding of the human psyche under emotional stress before exaggerating it into angst!

"Here I am once more in the playground of the broken hearts, I'm losing on the swings, I'm losing on the roundabouts..." "The game is over...". 

Yes, there is angst, but the multitude of images that spring forth from these lyrics shows a very mature form - and "Fugazi" is pratically pure prose, so the "sixth-form" reference sounds a bit flippant to me. There's certainly drama in these lyrics, I'll warrant you that!

For non-angsty Fish lyrics, check out "Garden Party", "Forgotten Sons", "Assassing", "Jigsaw", "Heart of Lothian" (for starters!).

I'm not trying to force opinions here, just attempting to highlight the incredible depths and inventiveness of Fish's lyrics to stem this kind of light dismissal.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2004 at 07:00
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by emdiar emdiar wrote:

Fish writes like an angst ridden sixth form drama student.

Most angst-ridden sixth form students just write self-evident humourless junk with little or no reference to real life or themes outside of their angst.

At least Fish had the intelligence to inject a large amount of irony and understanding of the human psyche under emotional stress before exaggerating it into angst!

"Here I am once more in the playground of the broken hearts, I'm losing on the swings, I'm losing on the roundabouts..." "The game is over...". 

Yes, there is angst, but the multitude of images that spring forth from these lyrics shows a very mature form - and "Fugazi" is pratically pure prose, so the "sixth-form" reference sounds a bit flippant to me. There's certainly drama in these lyrics, I'll warrant you that!

For non-angsty Fish lyrics, check out "Garden Party", "Forgotten Sons", "Assassing", "Jigsaw", "Heart of Lothian" (for starters!).

I'm not trying to force opinions here, just attempting to highlight the incredible depths and inventiveness of Fish's lyrics to stem this kind of light dismissal.

I accept your point re depths and inventiveness Cert.,  personal taste also plays a role. Fish's lyrics are literate and literary in nature, clever and laden with irony, word-play, and poetic devices, I can't and won't deny that. Perhaps I was a little unfair to dismiss him so out of hand. I seem to have a problem with Fish...I just can't feel the same way about him as you do.....

No, really, it's me, not you, I guess I'm just not ready to commit just yet.....You should meet other..... No, wait, that's the wrong speechEmbarrassed



Edited by emdiar
Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2004 at 08:03

Originally posted by Fragile Fragile wrote:

Up untl James Lee's ludicrous comments on Peter Hammil I had been enjoying the very accurate and pertinent posts regarding Fish and Co.As to Fish a wonderful talent.As for alluding to the great man Hammill as a girly lyricist it's the most ridiculous thing I have heard! ' Citadel reverberates to a thousand voices now dumb oh what have we become - now the immortals are here' Opening lines from 'Still Life' a truly magnificent album with truly wonderful lyrics 'and the organ monkey screams'

You're right- I have no wish to seem at all misogynistic, so I retract any feminine component. He actually sounds more like a frustrated teenaged romantic, perhaps influenced a bit by the Lord Dunsany/ William Morris style, and I fully admit there is a definite development through various 'voices' and temporary experiments from "H to He" (I never heard the previous VDGG albums) to "Incoherence", where he pretty much admits his lifelong struggle with expression. His particular take on dramatic angst-ridden poeticism places him very much in the Gabriel- Fish spectrum, and I have to admit that I only like Gabriel's lyrics about half the time (and Fish's even less, but still more than Hammill). When Gabriel was good, he was just about the best writer in prog (why else would Friedkin have tried to lured him away?), but he could also be very clumsy at times, and had an uneven track record making his results match his intentions ("Lamb" is admittedly unfinished).

Sinfield (sorry I missed your mention threefates) came from a similar place, with less angst and more esoteric literature and historic themes, but (in King Crimson, especially, but also when singing his own lyrics) Lake tended to moderate this potential for pomposity by keeping his delivery much drier, downplaying the drama and self-expression. Palmer-James was much more playfully emotive and yearning (the incomparable "Starless", "The NIght Watch"), and occasionally Waters-caustic ("Great Deciever", "Easy Money"). I love Jon Anderson, but for most of the 'classic' Yes albums he can hardly be called a lyricist- his cosmic poetry was often beyond literal intelligibility (is that really a word?), relying on word combinations and sounds for expression- a succesful but unusual approach for prog.

There you go, a more typically long-winded James Lee answer than my first post

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2004 at 08:54

In support of the Hammill contingent - and really just to confirm his talent rather than be confrontational - this doesn't look very girly or particularly angsty to me...

A bit rough in places, compared to the seamlessness of Fish (who gets a mention...), but beautifully constructed and with a good punch at the end (any excuse to disseminate great lyrics!);

 

Ophelia : Peter Hammill

"This one's authentic, son of a gun,
a soundtrack from China in the universal tongue....
The world is our oyster to plunder at will
though the palats is jaded by all but the thrill
of fish out of water, life in the raw...
Without understanding of what life's worth fighting for.
Out of universal language some stuff never translates -
the reports come in clusters but for words it's too late...
Six o'clock entertainment, tears of anguish and rage...
in the zoos of the media the spirit of moment is caged.
There's only one language the whole world comprehends,
there's only one message as the darkness descends...
do you still have a question or do you retract?
There's a whole world of difference between the observer and the act.
They're playing world music in Tiananmen Square.
They're playing world music in Tiananmen Square.
The whistle of bullets in the air."

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2004 at 09:14

 

That's 'Our Oyster' from 'Out of Water', right?

There's also angst, under a guise of irony and cold objectivness, in 'A Motorbike in Africa', and more direct in 'The Future Now', 'Energy Vampires' (The Future Now), 'Mr. X', 'Faculty X' (pH7), some sections of 'Flight' (A Black Box), and even many sections of his concept-album 'The Fall of the House of Usher'.

James Lee made some good points in his second post, which I have to admit though I don't agree with his overall appreciation on Hammill's lyrical abilities. Yet, Hammill can be dexcribed as mostly a romantic, not only on romantic relationship issues, but also regarding his points of view about humanity, society, science, beauty, the self, etc. 

Regards.

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