| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
mystic fred 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
Status: Offline
Points: 4252
|
 Topic: Audio equipment "burn in" - a myth?
Posted: November 21 2006 at 07:18 |
When choosing new audio units (esp.amps and cd players), many reviews I come across say something like "it didn't sound too great out of the box but after 200 hours burn-in it really came into its own, sounds amazing, and gets better every day".
Is this "burn in" period just a myth - or a psychological adaptation to the sound of the new unit? Do new units actually need a "run in" period? 
Your expert opinions, please!
|
 Prog Archives Tour Van 
|
 |
Neil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1497
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 07:24 |
|
Loudspeakers certainly do need running in. The voice coils need to free up before the sound gets to its best. With amps and CD players etc it is far less important and I suspect that a lot of the adjustment is your "ears" adjusting to the sound.
|
|
When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
|
|
oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 07:25 |
|
A reality!
Some speaker's pairs need 200 hours indeed!
|
|
oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 07:29 |
|
Even solders and cables (especially the ones with filtering boxes, cause there's electronic circuitry).
Evrything's needs burn-in period, but the longer needed is the speakers.
Another point is the "heating" element. My tube amp needs 45mn/1 hour to be at the top, my subwoofer (which includes a 200W solidstate amp),needs 4 to 5 hours to reach the top!!
So my whole system needs four to five hours to be at the summit.
|
|
MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21199
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 07:56 |
|
^ so you leave the equipment on for hours before you put a record on?
|
|
|
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20241
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 08:00 |
We've already had this conversation before. But here goes my knowledge on ageing materials (this is the research subject I work on: ageing of metals and keeping the same characteristics and proprieties)
Even new cars now still have running periods (but 2500 Km in,stead of 15000Km in the 70's) but because the engine is not working at the temperatures it is resting at.
With stereos, you can guess that these temp changes are much less of a problem between rest and operation stages (aside the power supply and those tube amps) , most of the rest is warmed up slightly but this not affecting the electronics signal carrying the sound >> generally an intelligent design would ensure that the sound signal is completely immune to parasites such as heat.
Cables: If you have correct contacts in between cables jacks and their socket plug, there is no loss (loss is general wasting power and creating heat) and this is why it is important to have good cable (instead of those RCA red and white cinch cable usually given free with the stereo units), but the running in of those cables is really something I would not consider as essential or even worth worrying about sionce they operate at room temperatures (which in itself is usually fairly constant>> between 15°C and 30°C where copper and other alloys do not change characteristics.
Unless powering up a real strong signal like a PA for DJ or concerts (but this is out of range for the living room hi-fi stereos), you should not feel you speaker cables heating up more than a dozen degree above room temperature, provided you do not induce capacitance by winding them the cables in a coil >> best to calculate the exact lenght (+50cm max) before cutting them to size. Having extra lenghts is expensive, costly and usually create disorder that your missus or mother will usually bind the lenghts together so they are easier to clean around and less visible.
Speakers: Here there is a real possibility that the moving coils need the running in period is really helpfull. Magnetite is one material that can eventually lose its characteristics if misused. Safest to obey the manufacturer's notice >> after all they know best.
Amps : of course the manufacturer knows best, but in general the usual electronics (this does not include the tube technology) do not need a running in period , but it is of course not a good idea to abuse the system from the start (jack-rabbit start you Corvette on a cold engine is also not a good idea) , but training the sound system in volume control is more than advisable.
and other components: outside the cassette decks reading and taping heads (which have magnetite, but I have never read a user's manual where they mebtion running in), i do not see what there is to run in.
|
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20241
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 08:10 |
 MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ so you leave the equipment on for hours before you put a record on? |
Some turntables are not to be switched off for best keeping the speed acurate. But this is quite anal preoccupations.
But coils (as well in your stylus) and magnetite are subject to the heat factor and therefore the designed according to a normal operating temperature. Try operating your hifi in the garden in the winter (negative temps) and see how it reacts.
Our normal home electronics (still based on the old 74 series) is meant to operate between 5 and 30°C best. They will still work from -5° to +40° c but it f**ks up once in a while >> during hot summer days (you know those hot humid dog days of summer), my Cd player is having trouble after two hours operation
Military electronics (based on the 54 series) can work from -50° to +75°C for obvious reasons >> also explaining the coast of the equipme
|
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 08:23 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ so you leave the equipment on for hours before you put a record on?
|
It has to run during 4/5 hours to be at the top.
Of course, i listen from the beggining, and the system "climbs". The highs are well "hot" at 45 minutes, but the low (sub) takes much more time as i explained.
To let my subwoofer on standby during the night helps. The room temperature also plays its role and so its shorter to be hot in the summer.
My Goldmund D/A converter is worst cause it needs almost 24 hours to be hot. That's why i let it in standby all the time, unless i plain not to listen it during several days, and in this case, i have to think about re-plug it 24 hours before.
The problem was the day i bought it, my hifi provider came in the morning, and stayed until i took my decision at 5.00AM the next day, when the Goldmund had about 16 hours of run-in, enough to hear how it's good.
For example, when happened the big european electric cut recently -which involved a 30 minutes cut during the night- i could hear the day after that it was not as good as usual.
The hoter the converter is, the best it is. It has to "bake" well, as we say among audiophiles.
My drive only needs 2/3 hours.
Edited by oliverstoned - November 21 2006 at 08:26
|
|
Neil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1497
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 08:56 |
|
Semiconductors are unusual in that their resistance falls with rising temperature. Most other materials increase in resistance as the temperature rises. Any metal cables or connectors will work better at cold temperatures (some becoming superconducting when cold enough, but we're talking very low temperatures)but most electronic devices will work better when warmed through. As Sean suggests most pieces of hi-fi equipment are optimised to work in a temperature range that is likely to occur in a normal home. I'm surprised that Oliver says that one of his pieces of kit takes 24 hours to warm up. I would have thought that any piece of kit of hi-fi size would have reached a stable temperature after a couple of hours; but I've not heard it so I can't say for sure. Perhaps there are some other electro chemical effects going on in components that need time to settle down.
Edited by Heavyfreight - November 21 2006 at 08:57
|
|
When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
|
|
oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 09:02 |
|
I don't know why but that's what the manufacturer recommends and indeed, the difference between cold and warm is like night and day.
|
|
oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 09:17 |
|
Actually all the big converters i know need from 20 to 24 hours HEATING time (Golmund, Brinkmann, Levinson).
That would be interesting to know why.
Edited by oliverstoned - November 21 2006 at 11:25
|
|
Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 10:32 |
|
Some equipment needs to burn in, but in some cases it's probably one's
mind adjusting itself to like what one paid so much for, but was
slightly disappointed by at first. Freud described the process as
Rationalization.
|
|
oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 10:43 |
|
Maybe for some people, but not in my case.
|
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20241
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 10:45 |
Philéas wrote:
Some equipment needs to burn in, but in some cases it's probably one's mind adjusting itself to like what one paid so much for, but was slightly disappointed by at first. Freud described the process as Rationalization.
|
There is also probably a lot of that too.
This is always frequent with record buyers as well, subsconsciously adapting their tastes to their inferior acquisitions so eventually they become pleased with them.
I mean there are some Tull fans that even like Uncer Wraps, some Genesis fans giving 5  to Duke and 3 to Invisible Touch.
|
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 10:48 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Philéas wrote:
Some equipment needs to burn in, but in some cases it's probably one's mind adjusting itself to like what one paid so much for, but was slightly disappointed by at first. Freud described the process as Rationalization. |
There is also probably a lot of that too.
This is always frequent with record buyers as well, subsconsciously adapting their tastes to their inferior acquisitions so eventually they become pleased with them.
I mean there are some Tull fans that even like Uncer Wraps, some Genesis fans giving 5[IMG]height=17 alt=Star src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley10.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> to Duke and 3[IMG]height=17 alt=Star src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley10.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> to Invisible Touch. |
This is off-topic, but i recently reviewed "Songs from the wood" and i can't believe the other reviewer's ratings.
Edited by oliverstoned - November 21 2006 at 10:48
|
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20241
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 11:01 |
oliverstoned wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Philéas wrote:
Some equipment needs to burn in, but in some cases it's probably one's mind adjusting itself to like what one paid so much for, but was slightly disappointed by at first. Freud described the process as Rationalization.
|
There is also probably a lot of that too.
This is always frequent with record buyers as well, subsconsciously adapting their tastes to their inferior acquisitions so eventually they become pleased with them.
I mean there are some Tull fans that even like Uncer Wraps, some Genesis fans giving 5[IMG]height=17 alt=Star src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley10.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> to Duke and 3[IMG]height=17 alt=Star src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley10.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> to Invisible Touch.
|
This is off-topic, but i recently reviewed "Songs from the wood" and i can't believe the other reviewer's ratings. |
I just read your review. Although I respect your point of view, you will gain to reallt re-listen to this album. It does not give itself up easily, and it will take a few listens. To me , this is the last brilliant Tull album (Heavy Horses is not even close as this one) and much better than Minstrel In The Gallery
Edited by Sean Trane - November 21 2006 at 11:03
|
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 11:08 |
|
So, i'll try again!
|
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20241
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 11:13 |
oliverstoned wrote:
So, i'll try again! |
and really listen to it. Maybe read over the reviews to help you find it.
1. Songs From The Wood (4:55) 2. Jack-In-The-Green (2:32) 3. Cup Of Wonder (4:34) 4. Hunting Girl (5:13) 5. Ring Out, Solstice Bells (3:47)  6. Velvet Green (6:05) ,5 7. The Whistler (3:31) 8. Pibroch (Cap In Hand) (8:38) 9. Fire At Midnight (2:27)
and there are two excellent bonus tracks too 
|
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
Status: Offline
Points: 4252
|
Posted: November 21 2006 at 11:26 |
Sean Trane wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ so you leave the equipment on for hours before you put a record on? |
Some turntables are not to be switched off for best keeping the speed acurate. But this is quite anal preoccupations.
But coils (as well in your stylus) and magnetite are subject to the heat factor and therefore the designed according to a normal operating temperature. Try operating your hifi in the garden in the winter (negative temps) and see how it reacts.
Our normal home electronics (still based on the old 74 series) is meant to operate between 5 and 30°C best. They will still work from -5° to +40° c but it f**ks up once in a while >> during hot summer days (you know those hot humid dog days of summer), my Cd player is having trouble after two hours operation
Military electronics (based on the 54 series) can work from -50° to +75°C for obvious reasons >> also explaining the coast of the equipme |
I considered this during the last heatwave we had in July, and found my amp to get rather hot, so whilst using my audio equipment had an electric fan running and trained on the amplifier. No adverse effects were apparent during this, and the amp is still working well.
BTW thanks for some very interesting comments from all - i learned a few things today! 
MF
Edited by mystic fred - November 21 2006 at 11:36
|
Prog Archives Tour Van
|
|
Stjernestøv
Forum Groupie
Joined: November 30 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 44
|
Posted: November 30 2006 at 15:42 |
|
This is very interesting reading. I recently bought a mid-priced stereo system (10000 NOK, about $1300?), and while I love it, it took me a little while to adjust to it, especially since it's more known for clarity than bass (I've always owned substandard, bassy mini hi-fi's and headphones). But I must say I love it to death now. :)
|
|
"My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too."
|
|
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Audio equipment "burn in" - a myth?
