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ANDREW 
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 Topic: Hard-Prog/Dark-Prog
Posted: November 18 2006 at 14:46 |
Hard Prog: RUSH, DEEP PURPLE, URIAH HEEP, ATOMIC ROOSTER, T2, LUCIFER'S FRIEND etc...
Dark Prog: VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR, BLACK WIDOW, ARCADIUM, BRAM STOKER, Dr.Z, CZAR, HIGH TIDE, MONUMENT, ZIOR, NECROMANDUS, STILL LIFE, AREKNAMES, WRITING ON THE WALL, MALOMBRA, STANDARTE, IL SEGNO DEL COMANDO, ABIOGENESI, PRESENCE, JACULA, ANTONIUS REX, ARS NOVA, WICKED MINDS, etc...
What do you think???
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heyitsthatguy
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Posted: November 18 2006 at 16:27 |
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Cool idea, but I think King Crimson should be included in Dark prog
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: November 18 2006 at 16:32 |
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No, it makes no sense as a genre.
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stonebeard
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Posted: November 18 2006 at 16:36 |
I don't know/care. I have no ideas about genres anymore. Let people who really think they know what's best for categorization and who like doing it take the helm. 
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Vompatti
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Posted: November 18 2006 at 16:55 |
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Aren't there enough genres already?
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: November 18 2006 at 17:28 |
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^ there are not enough genres to properly describe the music - Symphonic Prog, Avant Prog, Art Rock and Prog Metal contain bands which are completely different from each other. But the problem is that further subdivisions would create inconsistencies too - some bands would need to be placed in multiple genres.
Solution: Tagging!
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ANDREW
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Posted: November 18 2006 at 18:21 |
 Vompatti wrote:
Aren't there enough genres already? |
Yes, but i think that this new subgenre is much more important than Prog-Related or Proto-Prog.
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rileydog22
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Posted: November 18 2006 at 19:12 |
The genres are most useful helping people find music they might like. Dark Prog would not do this; a VdGG fan looking in Dark Prog might find themselves surrounded by Prog Death Metal and Prog Black Metal.
Perhaps bands could be placed in multiple subgenres; Atomic Rooster could be Hard Prog and Art Rock, or said Prog Black Metal band could be put in both Prog Metal and Dark Prog.
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Philéas
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Posted: November 18 2006 at 19:16 |
rileydog22 wrote:
The genres are most useful helping people find music
they might like. Dark Prog would not do this; a VdGG fan looking
in Dark Prog might find themselves surrounded by Prog Death Metal and
Prog Black Metal. |
Rather the other way 'round I'd say. Prog Death/Black fans would find
stuff like VdGG or King Crimson, band which would disappoint them. Prog
Death and Prog Black should of course be kept in Prog Metal if the Dark
Prog category ever sees the light of day.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 18 2006 at 19:24 |
Then we must create Soft Prog/Bright Prog where we could add Moody Blues, Asia and many ore that were lighter and catchy. 
Please Hard and dark are too vague terms.
I bet Trespass is darker than most albums but no way they would leave Symphonic.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 18 2006 at 19:35
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Revan
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Posted: November 18 2006 at 19:31 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Then we must create Soft Prog/Bright Prog.
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so do we have to create Camera Prog, progressive acoustic, Pre-rock, proto-garde and prog plastic? A variant isn't justified by the name, you have to stablish the parameters.
Edited by Revan - November 18 2006 at 19:33
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 18 2006 at 19:43 |
Revan wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Then we must create Soft Prog/Bright Prog.
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so do we have to create Camera Prog, progressive acoustic, Pre-rock, proto-garde and prog plastic?
A variant isn't justified by the name, you have to stablish the parameters.
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Good reply Reevan
But:
- Avant Gardeis a Classical School of music accepted by all cannons.
- Prog Metal is the combination opf Progressive Rock and Heavy Metal, it's what can be called adescriptive name, there's no Soft Plastic to blend with Prog
- Post Rock IMO is an artificial name brought beyond the paramethers of Prog
- Camera is included in the inappropriate but widely accepted name Symphonic Prog because is influenced by Clasical music.
Hard: Can be Hard Rock, a hard approach (All Classic Prog bands have hard moments and tracks, like Crimson, Genesis, Kansas, VDGG, etc).
Dark: Wider, again what is dark? Heaven and Hell by Vangelis is a dark album, Trespass is even darker, 666 has a darl concept, Darl may also imply unknown likle lets say Rainbow Theatre is a dark Australian band.
We have more than enough sub-genres IMO.
Iván
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: November 19 2006 at 04:25 |
rileydog22 wrote:
The genres are most useful helping people find music they might like. Dark Prog would not do this; a VdGG fan looking in Dark Prog might find themselves surrounded by Prog Death Metal and Prog Black Metal.
Perhaps bands could be placed in multiple subgenres; Atomic Rooster could be Hard Prog and Art Rock, or said Prog Black Metal band could be put in both Prog Metal and Dark Prog. |
This is exactly what would be solved by tagging. Imagine you have the following set of tags: Hard, Dark, Art, Prog, Rock, Black Metal and you could apply any number of them to any artist. So you could "build" genres for each artist - one could be "Dark Prog Rock", another could be "Dark Black Metal" ...
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Seyo
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Posted: November 19 2006 at 05:32 |
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The problem is: the more sub-genres we try to intoduce under prog rock, the more debate would arise as to where to put this and that band... I am very sceptical about this. Even now we have too many sub-genres!
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: November 19 2006 at 05:43 |
Ok, I give up ... the idea of fixed genres has been cemented in peoples' brains. 
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - November 19 2006 at 05:44
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Philéas
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Posted: November 19 2006 at 05:56 |
I'll just pop in again and say that I support Mike's tagging ideas. 
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: November 19 2006 at 06:45 |
^Thanks! I'm not saying that it's a perfect solution though ... play around with the new chart builder on my website (front page -> sidebar) and you'll see that assigning tags on a fine grained level can lead to somewhat peculiar results. For the archives I would recommend a less complex solution ... how about this: - Reduce the number of genres to something like that: - Prog Rock - Jazz-Fusion - Prog Metal - Avant-Garde And then add a number of tags. - Symphonic - Artistic ("Art ...") - Spacey ("Space ...") - Psychedelic - Post ("Post ...") - Folk ("Folk ...") - Italian - Prog-Related - Non-Prog (for the non-prog albums in the discographies of Prog/Prog-Related artists) - Zeuhl - RIO - Canterbury and then some new tags to further describe the music: - Melodic
- Atonal
- Experimental
- Hard - Dark - Melancholic - Uplifting - Cheesy/Fantasy - Neo-classical Each album is assigned to one genre and to any number of these tags (each tag is implemented as a checkbox in the database). I doubt that this will be implemented any time soon - but it's what I would do. 
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rileydog22
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Posted: November 19 2006 at 21:56 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^Thanks! I'm not saying that it's a perfect solution though ... play around with the new chart builder on my website (front page -> sidebar) and you'll see that assigning tags on a fine grained level can lead to somewhat peculiar results.
For the archives I would recommend a less complex solution ... how about this:
- Reduce the number of genres to something like that:
- Prog Rock
- Jazz-Fusion
- Prog Metal
- Avant-Garde
And then add a number of tags.
- Symphonic
- Artistic ("Art ...")
- Spacey ("Space ...")
- Psychedelic
- Post ("Post ...")
- Folk ("Folk ...")
- Italian
- Prog-Related
- Non-Prog (for the non-prog albums in the discographies of Prog/Prog-Related artists)
- Zeuhl
- RIO
- Canterbury
and then some new tags to further describe the music:
- Melodic
- Atonal
- Experimental
- Hard
- Dark
- Melancholic
- Uplifting
- Cheesy/Fantasy
- Neo-classical
Each album is assigned to one genre and to any number of these tags (each tag is implemented as a checkbox in the database).
I doubt that this will be implemented any time soon - but it's what I would do.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: November 19 2006 at 22:44 |
The funny thing is that despite is that despite Prog Archives has no new genres being added, no extra tags, no further experiments, we have grown enough to be the N° 1 Prog Resource in the net.
Just type Progressive Rock in Google or Yahoo and guess which site appears in the top?
Most respectable Prog sites have started long before Prog Archives but still we have managed to be more popular and visited than all of them
This means somebody must be doing things right...Don't you believe so?
It's obvious people likes simpler structures, 18 sub-genres (Against sites that have over 80), no moods atmospheres, just a sub-genre per band and let the reviews speak for us.
Why make dramatic changes if we are doing so well?
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 19 2006 at 22:48
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Bastille Dude
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Posted: November 20 2006 at 00:46 |
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I prefer the status quo.
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DEATH TO FALSE PROG!
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Hard-Prog/Dark-Prog
