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Garion81 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2006 at 17:59
Originally posted by Syzygy Syzygy wrote:

Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

The United States is a melting pot of people even though we started as an English colony (hence the reason we speak English). It is the common bond.  Immigrants from Italy and Eastern Europe, Germany and such learned English coming here as Legal immigrants in the 19 and 20th centuries.  This is the first time in our history that it is being challenged.
 
I live in a part of the United States where illegal immigration is rampant.  While I can sympathize with the plight of many of the people that are illegals what is less understood is the plight they place on the states and the citizens of those states that bear the brunt of their presence.  Not many illegals working here pay taxes but yet are provided services that citizens who are paying taxes get as well. Their kids get public educations, their trash gets picked up, their cars are operated on the same roads, they receive street light service, subsidized public transportation  and on and on that taxpayers get. There is also the cost of printing bilingual signs and pamphlets, labels on bottles etc.  Budgets are put in place regarding the number of people living in a State and the amount of money they can collect for them. Most of the money illegals earn is sent out of the country to relatives in their homelands. This places the government of the states in debt where they now borrow money and pay interest on that debt to be paid for by the future taxpayers that reside there.
 
I don't blame the illegals for this at all but I do blame the employers who keep hiring these people at illegal wages with no health insurance to cut corners on their products to make a few extra bucks. 
 
If you think the guy is harsh driving through neighborhoods that hire illegals admonishing them to stop doing that you are wrong. All he is really doing is telling them to obey the law and quit exploiting these people.
 
I agree with him.
 
 
The idea that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes is flawed. True, they don't pay income tax, although from my own experience of working among marginalised communities in London the majority would be happy to pay the same taxes as the rest of us if they could have legal status. However, governments have plenty of ways of raising revenue, and income tax is just the tip of the iceberg. Purchase tax is paid on most commercial transactions (VAT is 17.5% in the UK, I don't know about the USA) and illegal immigrants still need to pay fares on public transport, put gasoline in their cars and pay road tolls etc. In fact, illegal immigrants, in common with all of the poorer members of society, pay a far higher proportion of their income in indirect taxation than the more affluent. And of course, that brilliant con trick called supply side economics favours cuts in direct taxation for the already rich.
 
They do not pay income taxes which is the second largest collection next to property taxes.  Our Sales tax  rate is 7.50% in California and most food is excluded from that.  Public transit systems fee do not cover the operation.  The few toll roads we have in the state are privately owned with the exception of a few bridges in the bay area. The state gets very little of their, illegal workers,  money.  Many are paid cash with no records of the pay and no witholding for taxes. 
 
And as for public services; if your city, state or whatever has contracted these out to private enterprise you can bet your boots that at least some illegal immigrants are doing the lowest paid jobs. This is certainly the case in the UK, where even entry level employees in the immigration service have been found to be here illegally. That's right, the rubbish collection, street lighting and hospital cleaning that taxpayers get may well be done by non taxpayers.
 
No that's not true either.  Contracting with the government would require your company to follow strict guidelines for employing citizens or people with legal work papers. These types of jobs pay higher than the State Mandated minimum wage.  Legal employees can prosecute an employee who does not pay them according to state law. Illegales cannot.
 
And why do employers use illegal labour? It's cheap, non-unionised and pretty much infinitely replenishable. Agriculture is a great employer of off the books, casual labour - clamp down on that and watch prices shoot up, and then who'll shout the loudest? Those who blame everything on illegal immigrants.
 
California has labor unions working with the state government  dealing with illegal farm workers. It is far from  a perfect system but much better than it was in 1930-40's. These companies who exploit the illegal worker are ones who are trying to undercut other businesses in competition.  Most of these are but not limited to small manufactures such as garment makers, restaurants and fast food places that are not chains.
 
On the main topic of this thread, though, I have a certain amount of sympathy with the restaurant owner. I have spent several years working with groups of immigrants to improve their language skills, and one of the biggest barriers to integration and legitimate employment is linguistic. The students who make the best progress are those who use their English outside the classroom, so encouraging this is not such a bad thing from that point of view. I'm not so comfortable with the way he puts his views across, but it's quite likely that the media are reporting this according to their own agenda.
 
There are many groups of people who come into this country who refuse to learn or use English.  They waved flags of other countries during protests last spring.  If they don't want to leave here why don't they try and assimilate? 
 
 
My bottom line is this we are not talking about a few thousand people here we are talking about millions and millions of people and more coming everyday. There are about 3 million illgeals in Southern California. How can this continue before it collapses for everyone.  What is the limit of the number of people you could house under your roof with the same amount of income before you went broke? This isn't racist it is just a matter of numbers and it is becoming critical. 
 
Here is a great article on the subject:
 
 
 
 


Edited by Garion81 - October 27 2006 at 17:59


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2006 at 08:47
Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

 
My bottom line is this we are not talking about a few thousand people here we are talking about millions and millions of people and more coming everyday. There are about 3 million illgeals in Southern California. How can this continue before it collapses for everyone.  What is the limit of the number of people you could house under your roof with the same amount of income before you went broke? This isn't racist it is just a matter of numbers and it is becoming critical. 
 
Here is a great article on the subject:
 
 
 
 
 
"It is my sad duty to inform you of a four foot restriction on
humanoid height."
 
"It's said now that people will be shorter in height,
they can fit twice as many in the same building site."




Edited by Sasquamo - October 28 2006 at 08:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2006 at 14:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2006 at 14:35
^^^

LOLLOLLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2006 at 19:29
You can't say that immigrants don't try to learn the language in one sweeping statement, unless you've experienced it yourself you don't know how hard it is to come to a new country.  When you have to work nonstop to support your family and try to help those back home it is not so easy to acquire a new language even when you try your best.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2006 at 20:14
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

very graphic,very good,people ought to listen   the song  IMAGINE of JOHN LENNON congratulations
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2006 at 03:12
Originally posted by Scapler Scapler wrote:

Anyone ever been to Orlando? I can tell you one thing-many cashiers only speak Spanish, and when I ask them a question, etc..., they look at me as if it was horrible I had the audacity to expect them to understand the native language of the country they live in. In another country, would you consider ordering something if you couldn't read it? I am going to Germany this summer, and I am trying to learn basic conversational German, I would never order in English, I'd probably be thrown out...


Scapler: people speak English fluently in Germany, you shouldn't have a problem or be thrown out of any place, even if you don't speak German. In fact when I was there, most Germans preferred me to speak my native tongue so there wouldn't be a misunderstanding.
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2006 at 06:39
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:



LOLLOLClapClap
LOLLOL
LOL
LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2006 at 00:22
All right very funny.Stern Smile
 
  It does not address illegal immigrants.  None of you in Europe can comprehend this fact that thousand of people come into your country daily without papers and are hired by unscrupulous people who exploit them and their family. You know what happens to an illegal when he is injured?  He is told he cannot work and has no medical benefits.  He is turned away by hospitals because he cannot pay. . Maybe we should send 3,000,000 to England and then try that stupid cartoon.  You have no clue as to what you joke about. None.
 
 
BTW Tony your comment about the Italians of the late 19th early 20th century did not in fact identify them as LEGAL aliens as they were.  There is a huge difference. And really Tony and others from Europe that need to answer to the Native Americans before me or my folks. My ancestors came on my mothers side right before the Civil War from Ireland  and in the early 1900's from my Dad's side from Hungary.   


Edited by Garion81 - October 31 2006 at 00:31


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2006 at 00:41
One main problem is that they don't pay nearly as much taxes (income tax is huge, and sales and gas taxes aren't that high in the US. And property), and they suck up huge sups of Welfare and Medicaid money. It may sound heartless, but those systems are on the verge of complete onsolvency, and something has to be done about it.
81 hospitals in California are shutting down this year because they can't afford to continue to provide free care (which are they are obligated by law to give) to illegals who show up at the emergency room, even if they have something like an injured leg, which isn't really an emergency. And it's really late so I'm stopping now.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2006 at 14:26
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

 
ClapBig smileLOL
 
America really needs to do something about illegal immigrants.  One of the few times I put my trust in the republican government to do something useful, Bush turns his back on me...Cry
 
We need to send as many home as possible, ENFORCE border security, and change the law that says that anyone born on U.S. soil is a U.S. citizen.  A better law would be:  Anyone born on U.S. soil to U.S. citizens or immigrants who become U.S. citizens is a U.S. citizen.  That would solve the problem of illegal parents but legal children.
 
The only thing I can think for us to do now is to tell the parents that their child doesn't have to go with them, that the parents can go and the child can be put in an orphanage, or the child can go with the parents.  But I'm not sure whether I like that idea.Confused 
 
But there is NO excuse for illegal immigration.  There are legal ways to enter the country, and the fact that there are more people who want to immigrate than we can accept is a problem not with us, but with other countries, and there's not much we can do about it.  Sure, you can talk about how all they want is a better life, but there are plenty of people who want a better life who come here LEGALLY and learn our language (Mexican immigrants are the ONLY ones who systematically request that we pander to their unwillingness to become a part of America - I had ancestors, as did many of you, I expect, who came here knowing no English, and who learned it by immersing themselves in our culture).
 
Sorry to rant, but this is one of the FEW issues in which I agree with republicans, and it's also one I feel very strongly about.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2006 at 14:32
Originally posted by chamberry chamberry wrote:

Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

I think it is pretty arrogant to expect people in other countries to be able to speak English to us when we are there - i.e., not to expect Americans to learn the native language of other countries - and then turn around and require that everyone in the U.S. learn English.  Ex-patriate Americans throughout the world often make no attempt to learn the native languages of the countries they go to, nor do most Americans make any attempt to learn even a modicum of the native language when they travel to another country.  Instead, they simply expect that everyone will be able to speak English to them.
 
Thus, while it would certainly seem logical to expect those who come here long-term to be able to be at least minimally conversant in English since it is our "native" language, to adopt the kind of extremist attitude that Mr. Vento has is repugnant in the the extreme.
 
Peace.


I fully agree with this.  I would like to see him go to a foreign country and try to order some food and get neglected because he couldn't speak the language to see if he likes it.

The people are getting worse by the momment. What happened to those good qualities people had?
 
Obviously, he wouldn't get turned down, because if he truly believes what he said, he would bring a translation booklet.  His speech would be broken, his pronunciation would be awful, but he would at least be trying.  And that is of course only for a short term visit.  I assume that if he moved he would learn the new language, at least to an extent, which is better than what illegal immigrants in America do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2006 at 22:53

IN USA THERE ARE 25000000 OF HISPAN AMERICANS THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO USE SPANISH,WITH OUT PROBLEMS

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2006 at 13:08
Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

All right very funny.Stern Smile
 Maybe we should send 3,000,000 to England and then try that stupid cartoon.  You have no clue as to what you joke about. None.
 


Excuse me? According to the UN there are over 5 million legal immigrants in Britain (around 9% of Britain's population) and  an estimated 570,000 illegal immigrants living in Britain according to the home office. Britain is hardly a stranger to the controversy surrounding immigration.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2006 at 14:55
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

I think it is pretty arrogant to expect people in other
countries to be able to speak English to us when we are there.


What I think is arrogant is for someone to move into a country, work
there, expect to spend their entire life there, and never make any
attempt to learn the native language. I have never known an American
who has done that (although I'm not saying there aren't any.)
Vacationing is one thing, but permanent residents are another matter
entirely.


What about tourists? do you think America is our dreamland?... some people go there on holidays only... so for me that's not the way to treat customers, I find it discriminating
    
    EDIT: on the other hand, I do agree that people willing to live there should make attepmts to learn english... but that's not the way to make pressure.

Edited by Chus - December 10 2006 at 14:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2006 at 18:04
I think Illegal immigrants in the US & A(Wink) aren't the worst ones when it comes to not learning the native language of the country they are in. I believe the winners would have to be middle-aged norwegian people moving to the Costa del Sol(sunny coast) of Spain, living in completely norwegian areas, with norwegian churches, schools and stuff like that.

It's kind of a funny comparison, on the one side you have "immigrant gettoes" in USA with poor mexican(?) immigrants who can not or will not speak english, while on the other side, you have white, educated, quite rich people who refuse to speak spanish.
To me, that seems like an act of disrespect towards the country you live in.

anyway, this was kind of a silly digression... get back to talking about that cheesesteak fellow
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Each piece as amorphous as the other - Each piece in its lack of shape a lie
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2006 at 22:56
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

I think it is pretty arrogant to expect people in other countries to be able to speak English to us when we are there.


What I think is arrogant is for someone to move into a country, work there, expect to spend their entire life there, and never make any attempt to learn the native language. I have never known an American who has done that (although I'm not saying there aren't any.) Vacationing is one thing, but permanent residents are another matter entirely.


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