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Tony R 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
 Posted: October 22 2006 at 19:43 |
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You've never seen Spinal Tap?
Marty: "And what happened to Stumpy Joe?" Derek Smalls: "Well, it's not a very pleasant story, but uh..." David: "He's passed on." Derek: "He died-- He choked on-- The ac-- The official explaination was, he choked on vomit. He past away." Nigel: "It was actually someone else's vomit." David: "It was ugly." Nigel: "You know, there's no real..." Derek: "Well, they can't prove whose vomit it was. They never-- They don't have facilities in Scotland Yard to..." Nigel: "You can't really dust for vomit." 
Edited by Tony R - October 22 2006 at 19:43 |
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: October 22 2006 at 20:26 |
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Is this silly thread still extant?
Where is Bonham being "rated," anyway?
Actually, I'm no drummer, but I really couldn't care less how you, he, she, they or anyone else "rates" the late great John Bonham. Led Zeppelin will always be one of my favourite 70s bands, and Bonzo will always be their drummer: thundering away behind the kit, perfectly suited to the music, and sounding just as he should sound -- a vital, powerful component of a terrific, hard-rocking band.
 I'm listening to Zep now, and I love it! The drums sound just fine, to me.
 Respect where it's due.
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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tardis
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 02 2005 Location: Victoria, BC Status: Offline Points: 14378 |
Posted: October 22 2006 at 20:28 |
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Go Zep!
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65268 |
Posted: October 22 2006 at 20:45 |
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I recently had a bizarre gardening accident. BTW- 'Stonehenge' is pure prog Edited by Atavachron - October 22 2006 at 20:46 |
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Sasquamo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 828 |
Posted: October 22 2006 at 22:03 |
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A new law for the Prog Archives country: Freedom of Speech is allowed, but with the exception of publicly critisizing John Bonham or Led Zeppelin, which is considered a capital offense.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65268 |
Posted: October 22 2006 at 22:30 |
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Hardly a capital offense, you just have to take the bad with the good. If I came on and said I don't like Jimi Hendrix or David Bowie I'd probably get a similar bunch of responses.
Edited by Atavachron - October 22 2006 at 23:15 |
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: October 22 2006 at 23:02 |
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Don't be silly, or overly dramatic. No one is stopping you from writing what you want to about Bonham, are they?
I suppose my recent post provoked that wounded whine, did it?
 Look, Zeppelin are a HUGE, well loved & respected band in the history of rock. You should darned well expect to encounter some indignation when you take them on. Don't ask the question, if you can't take passionate opinions counter to your own! ("Freedom of speech" goes both ways.)
If you really want to know if Bonham was technically sub-standard, or less than good at his job, you need to get the opinions of those who worked with him.
To me, John Bonham (and each of his bandmates as well) was no "god" or anything, but a man (now, sadly, deceased) who happened to be a rock and roll drummer in one of the most important, successful bands in rock history. I think he did his job well, but I don't go around saying he was the "best," or constantly holding one rock musician up to another in some subjective, artificial "competition." I like him just as much as I think and say I do -- is that "overrated?" Where are these supposedly inflated ratings of Bonham that trouble you, anyway?
 (I have a lot of trouble with the term "overrated.")
Anyway, it's only rock and roll (these guys are not classically trained, on the whole), but I like it! Bonham played with a lot of heart, and seemed to know how to handle his chosen instrument. (I think that's generally true of most professional musicians. Rock and roll is about feeling, attitude, a beat, hooks, heart -- if I want only amazing, virtuoso technical ability, I'll stick to classical and jazz. I don't expect everyone whom I enjoy in rock to always "blow me away" with blinding speed, incomprehensible rhythms or seemingly inhuman feats.
Most times, for me anyway, quite good is good enough. Once someone attains a certain professional level of expertise on their instrument, I really don't care who is a little "better" or faster than who. I either enjoy the music, or I don't.
Perhaps you just don't really enjoy Zep, and maybe even resent their popularity a tad.
I don't like the modern metal music of Dream Theater, and they are more successful on this prog forum than I perhaps might wish, but I certainly don't doubt their abilities to use their instruments to the levels that their fans expect, and their music demands. From what I've read here, they're all technically very good musicians. I have no reason to doubt that, nor have I ever questioned their abilities. They may even be really nice & intelligent people too, but that's irrelevant to me when forming an opinion of their songs.
Again: it's only rock and roll -- but I like it, like it, yes I do!
 Edited by Peter Rideout - October 22 2006 at 23:38 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: October 22 2006 at 23:23 |
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Just found this on a Peter Erskine (respected jazz drummer -- Weather Report, Steps Ahead, etc) forum. A fan had asked Erskine what he thought of Bonham as a drummer. Erskine responded:
     By Peter Erskine on Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 07:26 am: Edit Post
Francesco, **************************************************************
Bonham is well respected on this drumming site, as well: His bandmates thought he was great, it seems. Edited by Peter Rideout - October 22 2006 at 23:58 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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darkshade
Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 19 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 10964 |
Posted: October 22 2006 at 23:23 |
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i think whats going on here is Bonham's talent is being judged on the studio albums. this problem is very similar to Nick Mason, both of whom i feel played much better and tighter live than in the studio. hell, Mason ripped up the set live, especially pre-DSOTM. as did Bonham
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65268 |
Posted: October 23 2006 at 00:00 |
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But that's O.K. because I feel his studio playing presents his clearest and most polished efforts. When Zep was firing on all engines they were incredible but if just one member was having a bad night the music suffered. Consequently, Bonham was often left holding the musical bag *and* still had to be time keeper which must have been draining. Bonzo could often recreate his studio feats but it is on the albums that you get to hear his amazing, unique style most effortlessly.
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Faaip_De_Oiad
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2006 Status: Offline Points: 529 |
Posted: October 23 2006 at 02:08 |
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I often found most the songs kinda boring. and like he could do much better.
Not saying all. just. not all his potential most the time. Atleast judgeing by moby Dick anyway |
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 3089 |
Posted: October 23 2006 at 06:44 |
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i have a theory on "moby dick". when i went from listening to the first album to listening to the second, i read some reviews concerning the poor musical performance on moby dick (stuff like "hey rock's not jazz, he'd better keep the teamplay and leave soloing for jazz drummers"), and with this idea in my head i too was disapointed. then i thought of the title - moby dick - and something interesting came in my head. i think the idea of the song is not melodic, but literary, and the musical structure is following the naration and that's why it troubles so many fans. as i have read moby dick and lots of jules verne novels about whale fishing, i saw a surprising similarity between the way i pictured a whale hunt and the musical naration. do you remember?: 1. the boats filled with sailors descend from the ship and start rowing towards the "crop fields" (agressive intro with guitar, bass and drums with strong riffs). 2. one boats picks a whale and starts aproaching it (drumming, not very strong but not very tempered also). 3. the boat gently approaches the whale in close distance (very tempered, murmured drumming; hand drumming sugests tiptoe sneaking) 4. climax: a sailor hits the whale with a harpoon (back to the sticks, climatic drumming episode) 5. the chase: the whale resists, sinks, comes back to surface, struggles, runs with the boat attched by the cable (strong agressive drumming for quite a long time, lots of thrills recurring with each struggling move of the whale) 6. surrender (the drumming descends in sound and attitude) 7 returning to the mother ship with the whale's body attached (triumphant entrance of the whole instrumental range of the band - bass, guitar, drums). what do you think? to me, this explained the tricky structure and helped me get over the first impression disapointment. then, after intense bootleg listening, i started enjoying it more and more. the performance from the january 1970 royal albert hall concert (on the recent DVD) is now one of my favourites zepp performances. Edited by andu - October 23 2006 at 06:51 |
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Hopeless
Forum Groupie 
Joined: June 25 2006 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 84 |
Posted: October 23 2006 at 11:32 |
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No, he is the best drummer i ever listen to.
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If i have any spelling\grammar mistakes, ignore them. English is only my second language <_<
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Guzzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 21 2004 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 3563 |
Posted: October 23 2006 at 15:47 |
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That is a very interesting thought indeed , thanks for sharing it!! |
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"We've got to get in to get out"
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Froth
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 19 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 461 |
Posted: October 23 2006 at 16:11 |
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Is Bonham overated? without doubt! He's a good rock drummer but nothing more. No more than most other drummers from respected 70s rock bands. I can't stand drum solos of any substancial length anyway but moby dick is something else. It just sounds like a war zone, not music
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Sasquamo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 828 |
Posted: October 23 2006 at 16:37 |
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Note he didn't necessarily say he liked John Bonham's playing, he just said he is influential. I myself don't doubt that he's influential, but I still don't like him. You never know, that guy could actually not like John Bonham's drumming, and was just smart enough not to to say so (unlike me).
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Sasquamo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 828 |
Posted: October 23 2006 at 16:43 |
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Actually, I believe that John Bonham himself has stated himself that the only relation the song has the the book is that when he played it his son, who know about Moby Dick, said that the song was "big like Moby." It's just John Bonham going crazy on the drums.
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 3089 |
Posted: October 23 2006 at 17:32 |
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as jason bonham was two years old when his father started developing the themes (the whole was first called "Pat's Delight") and was three when he recorded it for the album with the definitve name, "moby dick", there is little or no connection between your story and the actual idea that may have led to the song's theme. and one doesn't need to read "moby dick" to picture the idea of "hunt" or "pursuite" in a particular way, like the one bonham used. i didn't say his idea came from the book, but that is similar.
also, if it was just "bonzo going crazy" there would be no coherence, but he always kept the song's main narration without ever altering it. led zeppelin became what it became firstly because bonham, the band's soul, never lost the grip on things. until a bad august night in 1980. Edited by andu - October 23 2006 at 17:33 |
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Sasquamo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 828 |
Posted: October 23 2006 at 18:56 |
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First off, my story came from John Bonham's wife. Second off, what do you mean "he always kept the song's main narration without ever altering it." Moby Dick is an improvised drum solo. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, in case everyone wants a reason to dismiss my credibility. )Edited by Sasquamo - October 23 2006 at 19:03 |
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Sasquamo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 828 |
Posted: October 23 2006 at 19:02 |
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Overly dramatic? Whining? Allow me to object, for that was a humorous (yet partly true) post. You seem to be stressing the fact that you like John Bonham, and that your opinion is all that matters to you. Have you considered that maybe I feel the exact same way? Everyone is telling me that it's all a matter of opinion and then getting mad at me because my opinion isn't good enough.
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Do you think John Bonham is overrated?
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Tony R wrote: