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Tony R View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 12:38
Yes I did miss him out,bad mistake.I believe one of the tracks on Blue Nights is a Torn piece from CAM....

....listening to Getz's Capt Marvel at the mo,not Prog though...Chick Corea on keys.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 13:20
JAY440--

Yes, I have that it, it's reissued, and yes Squire and Alan White and Jeff Beck and Steve Winwood are on it.  It's on a 2-on-1 with another great Eddie funkfest called Is It In?

http://www.amazon.com/E-H-U-K-Eddie-Harris/dp/B00000IJSQ



Edited by nobody - October 20 2006 at 13:21
"Some of you are going to die... martyrs, of course, to the Freedom I will provide!"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 13:22
Oregon's latest album, Prime, is certainly worth picking up. It's amazing that after all these years they can still put out excellent releases and stay true to their roots for the most part (they have used more keyboards, but the trademark oregon sound is still there).
"Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression."

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2006 at 14:01
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Yes I did miss him out,bad mistake.I believe one of the tracks on Blue Nights is a Torn piece from CAM....

....listening to Getz's Capt Marvel at the mo,not Prog though...Chick Corea on keys.
 
Captain Marvel is a great Stan Getz album - and as close as Getz gets to JRF, but really back to Corea's Latin roots - a couple of the tunes can also be heard in a JRF context on RTF's Hymn Of The Seventh Galaxy. And the line-up is great too: Airto  and Tony Williams, with Corea and Clarke taking time out of RTF.
 
 
Listening to Walter Trout & friends album at the moment - good but I can take or leave Mr Trout (not a risk taker unlike  Mr Trucks). But I have enjoyed the relaxed ambient world jazz of Hugh's brother, Brian Hopper on his latest album in last 24hours.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 09:28
Austrian band Electric Outlet's On! arrived from Germany today, 4 days after ordering it via Amazon.UK - impressive response rate. And more importantly the music Electric Outlet generate is excellent - hard edged jazz rock. Elsewhere somebody spoke of the sound being Niacin with Joe Satriani playing guitar, but I would say you would be disappointed if you bought the album for this reason, since if it happens it lasts less than a few bars -  knowing some resistance to shreaders here, the Satriani comparison may be off-putting - and there is far less Hammond sound too. Strongly recommended.


Browsing the shelf of the local newsagent this moring, I read a few sentences from a interview with Stu Hamm. Anybody aware that he, Billy Sheehan and Jeff Berlin have been touring USA doing their version of (I guess)   G3 - anybody seen this show???
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 14:36
ALLAN HOLDSWORTH.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 16:05
This is an amazing thread!

By the way, if you like Bruford, Brand X, Pierre Moerlen's Gong, National Health and similar jazz-rock bands, and perhaps even Ralph Towner, Oregon, the Mahavahisnu Orchestra and Larry Coryell...

allow me to recommend:

(1) GARY BURTON QUINTET (with Eberhard Weber): RING and PASSENGERS (similar to Gong, but jazzier)

(2) EBERHARD WEBER: YELLOW FIELDS and THE COLOURS of CHLOE (pure jazz-prog, these two!)

(3) PAT METHENY: THE WAY UP (pure prog, but mainly with jazz guitar instead of rock guitar)

(4) WEATHER REPORT: BLACK MARKET (superb! much more inspired than their HEAVY WEATHER album)

(5) HERBIE HANCOCK: HEAD HUNTERS (a must for all 1970 synths freaks)

ENJOY!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2006 at 18:50
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Austrian band Electric Outlet's On! arrived from Germany today, 4 days after ordering it via Amazon.UK - impressive response rate. And more importantly the music Electric Outlet generate is excellent - hard edged jazz rock. Elsewhere somebody spoke of the sound being Niacin with Joe Satriani playing guitar, but I would say you would be disappointed if you bought the album for this reason, since if it happens it lasts less than a few bars -  knowing some resistance to shreaders here, the Satriani comparison may be off-putting - and there is far less Hammond sound too. Strongly recommended.



Th Austrian who passed on the info wrt Electric Outlet, has corrected me: the band is German - my apologies
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 03:26

very fun thread and good for checkin out ppl's lists too.....to keep as strictly as i possibly can to the understanding of 'jazz rock' here, i would suggest these releases to be checked out:

Soft Machine - Third
Catapilla - s/t / Changes
Nucleus - Live In Bremen
Weather Report - I Sing The Body Electric
Eliff - Girlrls!
Return To Forever - Where Have I Known You Before
Cosmic Farm (Wasserman, Erickson, Lavitz, Sire) - s/t
Mahavishnu Orchestra - Birds Of Fire / Lost Trident Sessions
Embryo - Father Son & Holy Ghosts
Passport - Doldinger
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 08:04
P.S. I completely agree with all the praise given to CLOUD ABOUT MERCURY, which is a superb album, even if you can hear Bruford complain (on the BLUE live CD) that his percussion was too far back in the mix! Wonder if we'll ever get to hear any new BLUE CDs? Maybe Tony Levin's work schedule's too busy... I love Bruford's work with Earthworks, but I'd also love to hear him play heavier electric stuff...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2006 at 08:21
Originally posted by Froth Froth wrote:

As far as jazzrock goes as a hole, some of it i like, some of it i dont. Miles Davis was really good when he first went electric but by the mid 70s, he just went too funk. I love Soft Machine and The National Health (2 of my favourite bands) and 'Tenemos Roads' is in my mind the greatest peice of music ever written although i always concidered those two to have too many classical influences as to be classed as 'jazzrock'. Infact when soft machine did become a proper jazzrock band (1973-1984) is when i loose interest with them. 

 

Theres some weird jazz-rock stuff going on in England at the moment. 'acoustic ladyland' may well be one of the loudest jazzbands ever and Fullborn Taversham are simmilar but more avant-garde. 

 But at the moment the best jazzrock band around has to be 'Machine and the synergetic nuts' from Japan. they are excellent     


I completely agree with you about the superior nature of National Health's albums (as well as Soft Machine's VOLUME TWO). If you really enjoy such quirky stuff, do check out these albums by Django Bates:

SUMMER FRUITS (AND UNREST)
WINTER TRUCE (AND HOMES ABLAZE)

Officially, they are classified under jazz, but they've got a lot of electronic keyboards on them, and some rock guitar, and you can just tell that these guys must have listened to the Canterbury scene quite a lot. Even the song titles proclaim as much:

Armchair March
Food for Plankton (in detail)
Sad Afrika
Three architects called Gabrielle: just what I expected
Queen of Puddings
Hyphen-
Nights at the Circus
etc.

There's something typically English about the melodies they play, very endearing, and then, two minutes later, you'll hear them go nuts! The same is true for Julian Arguelles' magnificent ESCAPADE (recorded in 1999), probably the most National Health-like album I've heard since National Health! Which doesn't mean Arguelles is an epigone. Far from it. He's a sax virtuoso! There just happens to be a strong similarity in mood...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2006 at 08:03

The following list come from the Jazz-Rock chapter of the ‘Dictionnaire du Jazz‘[Laffont] (1994) written by Xavier Daverat. I don’t agree with everything,  but in a whole it gives a good overlook over Jazz –Rock and the subsections make sense  in terms of developpment of the genre. Records are in quotations marks songs without.

 

1.Proto Jazz-Rock /British Jazz-Rock:

 

Graham Bond:  The Grass Is Greener (1963)/ Walkin In The Park (1966)

Colosseum : “Those Who Are About To Die Salute You” (1969)/ “Live” (1971)

Dada : “Dada” (1971)

Dick Heckstall Smith : The Pirate’s Deam (1972)

King Crimson :  Lizard (1970)/ “Islands” (1971)

Manfred Mann: “Chapter Three” (1970)/ “Solar Fire”(1974)

Matching Mole : “Little Red Record” (1972)

Mogul Trash : “Same” (1971)

Nucleus : “We’ll Talk About It Later” (1971)

Soft Machine : Out Bloody Rageous (1970)/ “Six” (1973)

Wizzard : Ball Park Incident (1973)

Robert Wyatt : “Rock Bottom” (1975)

 

2. US Jazz-Rock:

 

Carla Bley : “Escalator Over The Hill” (1968-71)

Gary Burton : Open Your Eyes, You Can Fly (1973)

Stanley Clarke : “Journey To Love” (1976)

Billy Cobham : “Spectrum” (1973)

Larry Corryell : “Spaces” (1969)

Miles Davis : “In A Silent Way” (1969)/ “Bitches Brew (1969)/ “ At Fillmore” (1970) / “Live Evil” (1970)

Al DI Meola : Suite , Golden Dawn (1976)

Jan Hammer : “The First Seven Days” (1975)

Herbie Hancock : “Fat Albert Rotunda” 1970)/ “Sextant” (1972)/

Keith Jarrett : “Hymn & Spheres” (1976)

John Mc Laughlin “ My Golas Beyond (1970)/ A Love Supreme (woth C. Santana) (1973)

Mahavishnu Orchestra : ‘Birds Of Fire” (1972)/ “Visions Of The Emerald Beyond” (1974)

Michael Mantler : “No Answer” (1973) / “Silence” (1976)/ “Movies” (1977)

Wayne Shorter : “Supernova” (1969)

Return To Forever : You’re Everything (1972)/ “Hymn To The Eleventh Galaxy” (1973)

Weather Report : Orange Lady (1971) /Boogie Woogie Waltz (1973) / “Black Market” (1975)

Tony Williams Lifetime : “Turn It Over” (1971)

 

3. Brass & Big Band Jazz Rock:

 

Blood , Sweat & Tears : Blues Part 2 (1969)/ “New Blood “ (1972)

Chicago Transit Authority : “ Live At Carnegie Hall” (1971)

Flock : “Clown (1969)/ “Dinosaur Swamps” (1970)

Ides Of March : Vehicle (1970)

Frank Zappa : “Chunga’s Revenge” (1970)/ “The Grand Wazzoo” (1972)/ Waka Jawaka (1973)

 

4. European Jazz Rock :

 

Burnin Red Ivanhoe : “ M144” (1969)

Krokodil : Looking At Time (1972)

Magma :  Stoah (1970)

Jean Luc Ponty : It Must Be A Camel (1969)/ Cantaloupe Island (1969)

Terje Rypdal : Keep It Like That Tight (1971)

Supersister : “Iskander” (1973)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by Alucard - October 27 2006 at 09:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2006 at 08:12
seems like i'm the one with the questions around. this time it's: why is colosseum regarded as a jazzrock band rather then a jazzy progrock band? i've listened to the albums of the first era and in my opinion they're just a (great) symphonic prog band with strog blues and jazz influences, of which blues seems the more important component, as some band members actually played in groups like mayall's bluesbreakers. i don't think having a sax, also, makes them jazzrock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2006 at 08:29
Colosseum called themselves jazz rock from the very beginning (coincidentally formed a few weeks after Timebox packed up, who declared there was no demand for jazz rock groups!) - and then the background of some of the players: Hiseman had been in the National Jazz Youth Orchestra, Heckstall-Smith in a number of jazz blues groups from the early 60's
 
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Feel uncomfortable with quite a bit of those listings - especially the use of "proto" . BTW Michael Mantler is Austrian. Where's Tasavallan Presidentti. And if Brit McLaughlin get parked under the US heading , then surely too Jean Luc Ponty for those American recordings. Hot Rats??? Personally I feel this is a forming of listing to be ignored, the errors and omissions being the problem.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2006 at 09:31
Dick,
 I agree with you, not everything is relevant in this list ,especially for the European Jazz, who has a less defined identy than the others,but I still I think, that it gives a good overview .
 BTW I put the section names myself, Daverat gives an explanation for every section and I just wanted to resume the sections. I like especially his Brass/ Big Band section, this subsection has a real identity and is rarely mentioned.
 


Edited by Alucard - October 27 2006 at 09:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2006 at 10:26
I like the brass (rock)/ big band inclusion - indeed one of the longest chapters in Stuart Nicholson's Jazz Rock: A History, is this very subject (although I suspect Nicholson is a big band fan anyway). My reference points being various of the Mike Gibbs projects from the late 60's into the 90's, Gil Evans (I played a track from his Plays The Music Of Jimi Hendrix on the radio show last night), the oft forgotten Loose Tubes, the late 60's music of  Don Ellis. One of the more interesting GRP Records releases was a recording of a  live big band lead by Don Grusin. As I've also banged on about brass rock and brass funk groups on another thread I wouldn't say anything there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2006 at 10:40
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Colosseum called themselves jazz rock from the very beginning (coincidentally formed a few weeks after Timebox packed up, who declared there was no demand for jazz rock groups!) - and then the background of some of the players: Hiseman had been in the National Jazz Youth Orchestra, Heckstall-Smith in a number of jazz blues groups from the early 60's
 
The first thing you say is not an actual argument, the further info is good to know for influences, but it doesn't regard their actual performance and possible definition. One other band I find it doesn't belong at all in jazzrock is Mogul Thrash. By the way, they have a double addition to the PA, this might be a job for the error correction team (or not?).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2006 at 11:18
Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

seems like i'm the one with the questions around. this time it's: why is colosseum regarded as a jazzrock band rather then a jazzy progrock band? i've listened to the albums of the first era and in my opinion they're just a (great) symphonic prog band with strog blues and jazz influences, of which blues seems the more important component, as some band members actually played in groups like mayall's bluesbreakers. i don't think having a sax, also, makes them jazzrock.
 
maybe a starting point for an interesting discussion about some Jazz Rock characteristics! Already there are several possibilities :  Historical & Musical, from the muiscal viewpoint : rhythm (the emphasis on et 'Off beat' in Jazz, then rock got a binary rhythm in opposition to the ternary Jazz rhythm*),  Harmony (use of scales), Instrumentation (A sax doesn't make music Jazz, but it's one of the most used instruments in Jazz and more Jazzy then let's say a cello) and even Melody, but only the combination and the given musical context makes the whole thing happen. In some cases the border is quite thin between Rock, Jazz, World and Classical Music.
 
 BTW Andu,
 What points would you put in favour for filing 'Colloseum' under Symphonic?
 
 
*Ternary or 3 part rhythm refers to the way the 1/4 note is split up. In binary rhythm, the 1/4 note is split into two eights of equal lenghts, or even eigths. In tenary rhythms the 1/4 note is split into eight triplets. When you play an eight pattern in ternary rhythm or 'swing' eights, the first eight gets the value of two eights of the eight triplet. The notation is written as streight eights, but the swing interpretation is always expected if you are playing in the Jazz idiom. This  'floating' rhythm in Jazz is  opposed to the binary rock  rhythm.


Edited by Alucard - October 27 2006 at 13:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2006 at 11:54
Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Colosseum called themselves jazz rock from the very beginning (coincidentally formed a few weeks after Timebox packed up, who declared there was no demand for jazz rock groups!) - and then the background of some of the players: Hiseman had been in the National Jazz Youth Orchestra, Heckstall-Smith in a number of jazz blues groups from the early 60's
 
The first thing you say is not an actual argument, the further info is good to know for influences, but it doesn't regard their actual performance and possible definition. One other band I find it doesn't belong at all in jazzrock is Mogul Thrash. By the way, they have a double addition to the PA, this might be a job for the error correction team (or not?).
 
There is validity if the band called themselves "jazzrock" - although I would agree with you to a certain point that the first album doesn't consist of every tune being jazz rock. Indeed some of the best British blues of the period (and perhaps why I prefer Litherland's voice to Farlowe's), then the example of Walking In The Park is minor reworking of Graham Bond's classic R'n'B single (which a couple of Colosseum had played already), and then you have Greenslade pushing towards the symphonic prog sub-genre.  I do think the consistent element of Colosseum's music on albums and most certainly their live material is the jazz emphasis tempered largely by blues/R'n'B and to a lesser extent mainstream prog. I would say the main influences on Colosseum came from John Mayall's Bluesbreakers and Graham Bond's Organisation - both bands freely using blues, R'n'B and rock -and jazz.
 
 
Mogul Thrash might be called a Colosseum spin-off because of Litherland's presence. Again emphasis on blues with a touch of rock here, a jazz solo there (the alto sax opening of What's This I Hear, has long remained a favourite) might suggest jazz rock, although compared to Colosseum there is less to justify the claim. To put both Colosseum and Mogul Thrash into a historical context, you also need to be aware of the breadth of musical experimentation and freedoms that a lot of bands were trying at the end of the 60's and the  beginning of the 70's. It was far from unusual to hear free jazz played by a progressive music group as part of an instrumental break, or the start of a tune; examples: King Crimson, Taste (and Stud -Taste's other spin-off), Skid Row, May Blitz, etc.. This why we called it 'progressive music' because of  the willingness to experiment and progress the music by merging rock with some other form(s) of music.


Edited by Dick Heath - October 27 2006 at 11:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2006 at 12:56
Danbo has just introduced me to Garaj Mahal (excellent jazzrock in the jam style with Mondo Garaj) and discovered Amazon.UK Marketplace are selling earlier releases by the band for 5 to 6 quid each!! (3 now on order).
 
Jan Hammer back catalogue now filling out after an excessively long wait - bowled over being reacquainted with Jan Hammer Group's Oh Yeah - and expecting Hammer and Goodman's Like Children any day.
 
 
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