Italian Progressive Rock as a subgenre

1. I don’t believe in Italian Symphonic for this reasons:

• Italian Prog is unique but not more than French, Spanish, USA or Latin American
• Italian Symphonic is not revolutionary different to any other, only has a touch of their ethnic reality but so all the countries already mentioned
• Most Italian bands are derivative or at least heavily influenced by British Symphonic or Classic bands, so if somebody deserves a special and unique national sub-genre, should be the source not the followers.
• Lets see what makes them special according to the definition:

  Italian Symphonic Prog definition: Indeed so much progressive music has emerged and continues to emerge from Italy that 1.- some people believe it belongs in its own sub-genre. 2.- Lyrics are almost entirely in Italian. 3.- Compositions sometimes follow traditional Italian arrangements and compositional style, some based on particular regions of Italy. However, Italian prog styles can, and do, also fall within all of the other sub-genres.

                                   i. Some people believe it belongs in their own sub-genre: Some people believe Pink Floyd is not a Prog bband and still some people believe Toto is Prog, so this is not a reason IMHO.

• Some people say that it’s necessary to know rare bands, for God’s sake I knew PFM and Banco del Mutuo Soccorso before I knew Kansas or any band from Eastern Europe, Italian Symphonic is widely known, it’s not rare anymore, the reason is not because they are separated here, it’s because they are good (quality shines without help) most old Progheads discovered Italian Symphonic before German or even Dutch.
• So obviously there’s not a valid reason to have the separate from all Symphonic IMO.

2. I don’t believe in Italian Progressive for this reasons:
   • Being Italian is not a sub-genre or makes them have something in common else than obviously being Italian
   • Bands should be gathered by common structure or similar influences, We have:

• So what in hell PFM (Symphonic), Arcansiel (Neo Prog), Area (Jazz Prog Fusion, Daemonia (Art Rock), Empty Tremor (Prog Metal), Gatto Marte (Rio Avant Prog), etc have in common except that they are Italian????
• A user who wants to listen obscure Symphonic bands can receive more help searching in a Symphonic list and then in the country he wants than finding Symphonic, Fusion, Art Rock and Prog Metal bands all together mixed in a sack just because they are from Italy.
• It’s simple, sub-genres are for styles, not for nations, again IMHO.

3.- Yes, I’m one of the members who was against the inclusion of ELO and The Beatles as Prog bands: But not for a secret agenda or anything, not a single collaborator receives a dime from Prog Archives we're amateurs that do it for love to the genre and site, in my case I don’t even have music related business, I gain my money as a lawyer, I was against their inclusion because I don’t believe they are Prog. Now, time gave me the reason, they were added as Prog Related or Proto Prog (Not sure) which means not strictly Prog and I agree with that, The Beatles influenced Prog without being Prog and ELO had a few Prog moments in the middle of Orchestral Rock, so that’s ok (For the third time  IMHO). 

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 13 2006 at 04:01

Andrea Cortese wrote: Two different doctrines and opinions fighting here:   1) the rationalist one: they want to classify each band through the analysis of the kind of music produced.     2) the pragmatic one: they think the main important thing is to find ways to make more accessible to know and investigate the prog scene of every area of the world.   Which is the right one?   Ivàn's words cannot be contraddicted. You cannot contradict a rationalist on his own battlefield! That's for true!   My opinion is that's impossible to follow strictly one of the two ways above. I think that this site, according to its own ambitious purposes (the spread of progressive rock all around the globe), should be focused more on no. 2 than no. 1.   The risk of too much rationalism could be an unprolific formalism.

talk about cutting through the crap hahahah  great post  .... and agree that music is  art... subject to analysis sure  but with no real right or wrong.... and couldn't agree more with you, debates with  those rationalists tend to go on for 10 pages and do nothing but bore the hell outta everyone else hahahahhaha.  I love a bit of debate.. but I  recognize when meaningful debate is over.. and you've lost nearly everyone..  Good call Andrea...  as a confirmed pragmatist.. and  stauch proponant of option 2.


Without intersested posters.... all the cataloging, indexing, and analysis  will do is result to applause .... in empty stadiums..  People are here to listen to check out great music... and find new stuff.  Not debate whether ... well I've said enough...   For the 100th time but as a great summation for any  in the prog penthouse watching this....  consoliating these sub-genres does nothing to make this site any better.... so why consider  it...  the more exposure the better.. .the groups that would be exposed are exactly the ones that need it..   Progressive..means to progress... not to regress  There is a good idea to change things a bit for the better here.. and end this tyranny of musical analysis that pervades the soft underbelly of this site....  let the people find these hidden gems of prog instead of hiding them with 100's of other groups.  More flexible classification gives unique areas and styles more exposure and it better for the site..  

Two different doctrines and opinions fighting here:

Edited by Andrea Cortese - September 12 2006 at 18:34

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Ghost Rider wrote: Here I am! You are perfectly right as regards the absence of non-Italian bands in the ISP section. In the other two geographically-based subgenres - Krautrock and Canterbury - there are some instead, which might support the argument of those who maintain that those two and ISP are different cases. However, when working on the cleanup of the general Symphonic Prog section, I have found several bands or artists (mainly South American) whose bios made reference to a strong influence of Italian prog - the most recent being Uruguayan solo artist Armando Tirelli. This means that those bands or artists might have been put in the ISP section as well as, for instance, Supersister or Picchio dal Pozzo were put in the Canterbury subgenre even though they are, respectively, from the Netherlands and Italy.   Good point Raffaella, but again I find a problem:   You can't place Argentinea or Uruguayan bands in a sub-genre called Italian Progresive, because this will cause more troubles: Italian is a national definition and neither Argentina or Uruguay despite the enormous Italian inmigration are part of Italy. Most people will believe this are Italian bands. Would be contradictory to add non Italian bands to a sub-genre called Italian Progressive. On the other hand, creating schools inside Symphonic will be logical, artists or a groups or artists from some nations created schools or tendencies with a few common characteristics (But all of them part of other sub-genre, including the source artists) that were followed by other musicians painters or artists: For example, lets talk about a Peruvian painter called Baca Flor:   Genre: Classic Sub - Genre:  Flemming (Don't know the translation but it's related to portraits) Escuela Alemana (German School): He followed the style of Durero   In our case:   La Máquina de Hacer Pájaros   Genre: Progressive Rock Sub-Genre: Symphonic Progressive Italian School: They are clearly inspired by the melodoic and softer side of Italian bands.   Now, if Tony's idea prosper, we could add the school as a new tag and clicking on it we could find all the bands of the world inspired by the Italian or Clñassic Prog Schools.   Another two cents.   Iván

Ghost Rider wrote: Sean Trane wrote: Tony R wrote: Sean Trane wrote: I feel this post of mine got unjustly ignored:     over 95% of Italian bands are in that Italian category and as far as I know there are none of the bands in that category that are not Italian.   If you check throughout most Argentinian bands , their main influences are Italian Symphonic style and this is little surprise since over 50% of the Argentinians are of Italian descent . Which means that either we open up this category to non-Italian groups or that this category is redundent to symphonic prog Well done Hugues,all that proves is that you ignored my posts which referred to yours....      Guilty as charged   No I had seen it, but I wanted Micky and Raf to respond to it Here I am! You are perfectly right as regards the absence of non-Italian bands in the ISP section. In the other two geographically-based subgenres - Krautrock and Canterbury - there are some instead, which might support the argument of those who maintain that those two and ISP are different cases. However, when working on the cleanup of the general Symphonic Prog section, I have found several bands or artists (mainly South American) whose bios made reference to a strong influence of Italian prog - the most recent being Uruguayan solo artist Armando Tirelli. This means that those bands or artists might have been put in the ISP section as well as, for instance, Supersister or Picchio dal Pozzo were put in the Canterbury subgenre even though they are, respectively, from the Netherlands and Italy.

of course he is perfectly right.....

Hugues...  your points were noticed and discussed and made all the sense in the world, and would include groups like them... and others .. in the a the new sub....

Tony R wrote: Sean Trane wrote: I feel this post of mine got unjustly ignored:     over 95% of Italian bands are in that Italian category and as far as I know there are none of the bands in that category that are not Italian.   If you check throughout most Argentinian bands , their main influences are Italian Symphonic style and this is little surprise since over 50% of the Argentinians are of Italian descent . Which means that either we open up this category to non-Italian groups or that this category is redundent to symphonic prog Well done Hugues,all that proves is that you ignored my posts which referred to yours....

andrea wrote: Though the following "link" is in Spanish, I think that the "subgenres" proposed could add something to this discussion...   http://manticornio.com/escuela/index-escuela.html

1. Manticornio has a very complex and different division than us, they believe in Main Subgenres, Derivative Sub-genres, Specific Sub.Genres and related Sub-Genres.
2. In other words, according to my impression,  Manticornio catalogies a Main Sub-Genre as Symphonic as more important than a Derivative Sub-Genre as Space Prog or Neo Prog and this are more important than Specific Sub-Genres as French, Italian or Spanish and at the end of the evolutive chain we have Related Movemens as Zeuhl, RIO, Avant Garde, Experimental and Art Rock.

This is valid for them, I don't believe it's valid for us, we have 18 sub-genres all uin an equal level, no one is more important than other, all except Italian Symphonic are based in musical characteristics.

1. GEPR has almost 30 sub-genres but includes Euro Prog, Dutch Euro Prog, Oldfield Progressive and Zappa Music among others
2. Proggnosis has three main sub-genres (Progressive Rock, Progressive Metal and Fusion) and each one has a lot of sub-sub-genres like King Crimson and Followers, Symphonic, Neo Prog and Others non Specific that make more than 60.
3. But if you like the less complex systems, you may go to Progressor and you will only find Three Sub-Genres Art Rock, Fusion and Prog Metal.

So why should we copy others? I find a logic in our system, one style for each sub-genre and only two wide categories called Art Rock and Prog Related to include Prog and Non Prog bands hard to classify.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 12 2006 at 03:49

Krautrock is a widely accepted Prog genre-Italian Progressive is not...

andrea wrote: Though the following "link" is in Spanish, I think that the "subgenres" proposed could add something to this discussion...   http://manticornio.com/escuela/index-escuela.html

I think that these "schools" of Symphonic or Folk Prog are valid but only within the umbrella of the headline genres.
Progresivo Andaluz o Rock Andaluz.
Progresivo Francés.
Progresivo Italiano



    
    

Edited by Tony R - September 11 2006 at 18:22

Spiderprog wrote: I think this whole discussion should be about what will be better for music lovers to discover new bands and albums and supporting bands that would otherwise not be discovered. To hell with what is right or wrong with providing some or all the information by country if it helps people discover Swedish or Spanish or Eskimo bands and promoting prog in these countries. Giving Italian Prog its own category helped many, many people discover albums and bands they would never discover otherwise. In the same way giving categories for Swedish, Spanish, South American etc. will help the music of these countries to be exposed. The main thing should be discovering and enjoying music. If a system helps doing just that and contradicts dome cold and dry theories about Prog Genres, so what? Just think of how much more exposure French and Spanish bands, for example, will be able to receive if a 100 best albums list for these countries or a similar system will be added to this site. The fact remains that even if theoretically speaking it's the right thing to do, most of the Italian bands (and some great masterpieces) will get close to zero exposure if Italian Progressive will be combined with Symphonic Progressive.

  great post and agree with Eugene... however..


that ^,  according to the powers that be,  may not be enough to warrant it being seperate.... I don't agree and posted a similar though lesser quality post earlier in the thread. A factual case for it's inclusion was asked for and it being worked on..  You know????  .. hell the damn thing is seperate already hahahha.. someone whoever put it there in the first place and knew well what they were doing..    anyway.. people want to screw with the system that has served the site so well.. though  well meaning I'm sure... but still wrong reasons.... but I've explained my thoughts of that enough times....      anyway... great post but not going to be reason enough I guess..... they want more 'concrete' reasons why it should be seperate  though I still think that ^ is reason enough.... this site is for the posters.... not for people to tinker with,  because  they think they know best hahahah

and will reiterate my point that eliminating this subgenre or splitting the groups apart as they are now hurt with the understand in the genre.... which has a interesting central movement behind it I'm coming to learn.....  Italian prog has remained seperate here.. and it should.. and I propose acually just a modifciation of it... instead of just ISP... making it RPI.. there would be no shaking change to the site... those who think so... are the some that thought that adding the Beatles or ELO would destroy the integrety of the site   oh well ...running my mouth again... time for dinner that back to the 'books' tonight hahah


Edited by micky - September 11 2006 at 18:10