What's progressive about 1964? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: August 23 2006 at 05:19

64 >>> A Love Supreme

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Dick Heath View Drop Down

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Posted: August 23 2006 at 07:36

Rocktopus wrote:

Two of my newly purchaced jazz favorites are from '64. Eric Dolphy: Out to Lunch and Herbie Hancock: Empyrean Isles.

The complex avantgardejazz especially of the former together with: John Coltrane: A Love Supreme, also from '64, are two of the most influential jazzalbums on progressive rock.

Forgive me, you use the term "influential" but could you please develop this idea for this particular thread - with these examples who was influenced, where do you see/hear the influence in later music? A Love Supreme is more well documented - e.g. Soft Machine acknowledging Coltrane in their Pop Prom concert notes, Roger McGuinn adopting the stream of notes approach for the original RCA recording of 8 Miles High, later Allan Holdsworth employing the same concept for parts of his instantly identifiable jazz fusion guitar work. As I've said before the polyrhythmic/multi-signatures used by D Brubeck Quartet - driven by drummer Joe Morello - are more obvious in early prog .

BTW Out To Lunch, A Love Supreme and (DBQ's) Time Out featured in Jazzwise's recent One Hundred Influential Jazz Albums poll.

Edited by Dick Heath - August 23 2006 at 07:38

Rocktopus

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Posted: August 23 2006 at 18:55

I thought Magma (Zeuhl) and lots of jazz rock in general was influenced by these early avantgarde jazz albums. I'm no expert and can't write in technical terms. I might be wrong, but I'm almost certain I've read and seen these titles mentioned several times as influential on the more experimental side of prog.

The thread asks 'What's progressive about 1964?' and I think all three albums qualify.

Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me

Arrrghus

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Posted: August 23 2006 at 18:59

Sean Trane wrote:

64 >>> A Love Supreme

Amazing album! I agree! Extremely progressive, influential, and awe-inspiring.

earlyprog

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Posted: August 24 2006 at 16:37

Just realised that The Beach Boys' "Little Deuce Coupe" from '63 actually is a concept album (the first?) centred round cars. Ofcourse before that their albums focused on surfing - don't know them well enough to call these concept albums also. So a progression in pop music can be traced back earlier than '64.

BB's "All Summer long" from '64 contains "I get around" with a somewhat sophisticated arrangement and the album uses xylophone and horns.

Dick Heath View Drop Down

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Posted: August 24 2006 at 18:53

earlyprog wrote:

Just realised that The Beach Boys' "Little Deuce Coupe" from '63 actually is a concept album (the first?) centred round cars. Ofcourse before that their albums focused on surfing - don't know them well enough to call these concept albums also. So a progression in pop music can be traced back earlier than '64.

BB's "All Summer long" from '64 contains "I get around" with a somewhat sophisticated arrangement and the album uses xylophone and horns.

I thought Jan & Dean had quite an influence on the BB's about that time, and certainly into dragsters first (one of them even had a very nasty motor accident because of their love of souped up motors and high speed - I think even sung about it in Deadman's Curve).

Epitath

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Posted: August 25 2006 at 19:36

This shows us, once again, that beatles were and are the creators of prog! Cheers!

Dick Heath View Drop Down

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Posted: August 26 2006 at 08:56

Epitath wrote:

This shows us, once again, that beatles were and are the creators of prog! Cheers!

Comeon I thought there was plenty of evidence provided above to show that no one band was the creator of prog!

Syzygy

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Posted: August 26 2006 at 09:49

1964 was the year that Daevid Allen met up with Gilli Smyth and the pair started writing songs together. The previous year Allen had palyed in a trio with Robert Wyatt (whose parents he lodged with at the time) and Hugh Hopper. Hugh Hopper apparently did some experiments with tape loops with Allen in 1964, and also formed the Wilde Flowers with his brother Brian, Robert Wyatt, Kevin Ayers and Richard Sinclair.

All in all, a pivotal year for the Canterbury scene.

On the jazz scene, as well as the release of Coltrane's mighty A Love Supreme (and don't forget his excellent album Crescent from the same year), Herbie Hancock took time out from playing with Miles Davis to record the wonderful Empyrean Isles, and Eric Dolphy released Out To Lunch just before he died.

1964 was also the year that Zappa joined The Soul Giants, shortly to be renamed The Mothers.

'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

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Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: August 26 2006 at 15:33

Syzygy wrote:

1964 was the year that Daevid Allen met up with Gilli Smyth and the pair started writing songs together. The previous year Allen had palyed in a trio with Robert Wyatt (whose parents he lodged with at the time) and Hugh Hopper. Hugh Hopper apparently did some experiments with tape loops with Allen in 1964, and also formed the Wilde Flowers with his brother Brian, Robert Wyatt, Kevin Ayers and Richard Sinclair.

All in all, a pivotal year for the Canterbury scene.

1964 was also the year that Zappa joined The Soul Giants, shortly to be renamed The Mothers.

I think we are reading the same OBR book, chris

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

chamberry

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Posted: August 27 2006 at 01:27

1964 - Terry Riley composes In C wich is concidered to be the first minimalist composition.

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: August 27 2006 at 05:27

chamberry wrote:

1964 - Terry Riley composes In C wich is concidered to be the first minimalist composition.

yup that is another goodie

Less minimalist but also much more interesting is 68's A Rainbow In Curved Air

Edited by Sean Trane - August 27 2006 at 05:28

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Dick Heath View Drop Down

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Posted: August 27 2006 at 16:18

Sean Trane wrote:

chamberry wrote:

1964 - Terry Riley composes In C wich is concidered to be the first minimalist composition.

yup that is another goodie

Less minimalist but also much more interesting is 68's A Rainbow In Curved Air

Hate to tell you but I've read some authorative reference,( maybe Groves Music Dictionary), that minimalism can be traced back to the early 40's. If I remember correctly, it was stated that a woman composer wrote the earliest identifiable piece of minimalism in 1943.

But then where ever you look for a trustworthy reference, e.g.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_701610421/Minimalism_(music).html

they muddy the water more.......

Interesting to see the word minimalism is supposed to invented in 1968 - however, we were certainly calling it 'cyclic music', including that heard at the performance of minimalist compositions (e.g. by Riley, Souster) heard in first half of the Pop Proms of 1970, that the Soft Machine performed in the second half. BTW I've asked this many times, but who played in that first set - my memory suggests Tim Souster, Mike Ratledge for sure but did Jon Lord turn up as well?

kebjourman View Drop Down

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Posted: August 27 2006 at 23:36

never really thought about 64 as such a progressive year til now

not saying i agree quite yet, but im thinking about it.

verry good points you have though

chamberry

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Posted: August 28 2006 at 18:29

Hmmm. That's very interesting to say the least. I hate it when we have to write history again. The same goes for the rumors I've heard about Chinesse discovering America first than Cristobal Colon...