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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46833
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Posted: July 26 2006 at 22:22 |
ahh..since the iron is hot .. ... with the constant sl*gging Kansas
gets for being AOR fresh in my mind from earlier this evening..
you can really narrow down Rush's 'superprog' status down to 3 albums.
2112, FtK, and Hemispheres.. after that they definitely went down the
AOR route...with blazing skills of course.. but AOR all the same.
Rush in 'super prog' status... no way... though their fans would qualify as 'super prog-fans' hahah.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: July 26 2006 at 22:26 |
Bye the way, what does super prog means?
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: July 26 2006 at 22:33 |
tuxon wrote:
Bye the way, what does super prog means? |
hahah whatever the hell you want it to I guess.. my take....
should be mentioned in the same breath as Yes, K.C., Genesis and the
like.... of course they shouldn't.. though Rush fan
will obviously think so... they influenced Dream Theater (along
with multiple groups like Marillion and Yes) and did a few great
albums, some good ones... and lots of stuff for their fans to
love. I remember when Counterparts came out that fans rejoiced
for getting back to the sound that they left behind years ago.
They've had what a 20 year window of less than classic albums... They
had a small window of putting out 'classic' prog.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 04:32 |
micky wrote:
ahh..since the iron is hot .. ... with the constant sl*gging Kansas
gets for being AOR fresh in my mind from earlier this evening..
you can really narrow down Rush's 'superprog' status down to 3 albums.
2112, FtK, and Hemispheres.. after that they definitely went down the
AOR route...with blazing skills of course.. but AOR all the same.
Rush in 'super prog' status... no way... though their fans would qualify as 'super prog-fans' hahah.
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You're asking for trouble, aren't you? *puts on Judas Priest's "Screaming for Vengeance", just to get in the mood* Wait until I unleash the Terminator on you... You'll have to eat your words!
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 04:47 |
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 05:01 |
I'd say Micky is right.
It seems that we're back to the "not all good music is prog music"
discussion. Moving Pictures is hardly prog, and even if it's innovative
it simply doesn't fit together with Close to the Edge or Selling
England by the Pound. However, I personally still count Rush as one of
the "Big 6" or whatever you wish to call them, on the basis of the
albums Caress of Steel, 2112, A Farewell to Kings and Hemispheres. The
trick is to see where to draw the line. Besides, what's so hideous
about AOR? If Rush's post-Hemispheres albums are AOR, it can't be that
bad, since all of those albums are great!
Based on their '70s albums, Rush is super prog (to me), but not all of
their output falls into that category. It's important to be able to
look past one's opinions and recognize important points that other
people point out.
Edited by Philéas - July 27 2006 at 05:02
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 05:29 |
Track listing Moving Pictures:
1. Tom Sawyer (4:34) 2. Red Barchetta (6:08) 3. YYZ (4:24) 4. Limelight (4:21) 5. The camera eye (10:57) 6. Witch hunt (Part III of Fear) (4:44) 7. Vital signs (4:47)
These 7 compositions contain hardly prog, Phileas ... ...?
Edited by erik neuteboom - July 27 2006 at 05:30
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 05:32 |
They are hardly prog, if one defines prog as the music of Yes, Genesis
or ELP. But they are certainly prog, if one defines prog as whatever music that
is new and unique.
See why this discussion is so hard?
Edited by Philéas - July 27 2006 at 05:34
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 05:34 |
But on this website there are hundreds of bands that have nothing to do with the music of Genesis, Yes and ELP... Are all the bands in the Canterbury, Post-Rock or Zeuhl sections (to name but few) not prog either?
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 05:41 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
But on this website there are hundreds of bands that
have nothing to do with the music of Genesis, Yes and ELP... Are all
the bands in the Canterbury, Post-Rock or Zeuhl sections (to name but
few) not prog either?
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I don't deny the progressive nature of any band on the site (except
maybe Rhapsody, but that's off topic), but seen from the eyes of the
typical old-school proghead, who accepts nothing except the classic
work of the classic bands (i.e. Close to the Edge, Selling England by
the Pound, Tarkus etc.), Rush's Moving Pictures is not prog. My aim
with the post was to point out that this discussion won't prove
anything, except that there are people who violently hate Rush and
people who love Rush just as violently.
Don't misunderstand me though! I love Moving Pictures, I just finished
listening to it, and I view it as one of the great prog albums. It's
certainly one of the best prog albums released in the '80s.
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 05:46 |
OK, Phileas, I understand what you mean because the Seventies music by Yes, ELP and Genesis was symphonic rock and Rush has symphonic rock elements on the albums A Farewell To Kings and Hemispheres but from Permanent Waves they created an innovative progressive blend of several styles, even ska and grunge !
By the way, lots of good discussions in this thread, thanks!
Edited by erik neuteboom - July 27 2006 at 05:50
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Liquid Len
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 247
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 18:27 |
Record sales have no bearing on quality whatsoever, just accessibility.
If it does then Michael Jackson and Madonna must be wonderful!
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Can you tell me where my country lies?
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 21:16 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 21:25 |
hahah... well Erik.. of course we all simply call them as we see
them... but to me, the turn to AOR away from pure prog is quite
obvious.. and was noted by the band due to their percieved limitations
on Hemispheres. They knew they had reached the end of the 'prog'
rope and mutated their sound. I'm not saying their stuff through
signals wasn't great stuff... it was..however I think it could easily
be called....hahah prog related AOR. The albums were
obviously geared to sell mass quantities and the artistic aestetic that
we love prog for.. and is one of the PRIME characteristics of what is
prog and is not.. gone .. sold for MTV rotation, increased sales, and
easier to digest albums. Few people would consider 90125 to be
anything but Yes mutating into a prog related AOR band... Rush was very
similar in the early 80's.. just done with less emphasis on songwriting
and more on instrumental showmanship. My two cents as always of
course hahah
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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rushfan6588
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 202
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Posted: July 27 2006 at 22:02 |
whenever i have a friend interested in getting into prog rock i always reccomend Rush's Counterparts album...to me this album is somewhat like porg "lite" and the move them to Permanent waves which contains solid rockers and Rush's prog masterpeice IMHO "Natural Science"
kinda off track but rush is in upper echelon prog but maybe just outside the "big whatever"
also i have trouble including Jethro Tull as a super prog band after Ian Anderson said that the prog thing was just a "joke" and "for fun"
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If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
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TOD KREMER
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 106
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Posted: July 28 2006 at 02:00 |
Maybe Rush is the #1 "heavy metal with prog elements" band in history. The ultimate chops-fest with good song-writing and melodies. If they aren't prog, all you nay-sayers should unite to have them kicked off this site. However, I do not think you would not prevail.
We will never settle this argument about Rush.
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Stand up to the blow that fate has struck upon you. Make the most of all you still have coming to you...
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: July 28 2006 at 06:10 |
micky wrote:
hahah... well Erik.. of course we all simply call them as we see them... but to me, the turn to AOR away from pure prog is quite obvious.. and was noted by the band due to their percieved limitations on Hemispheres. They knew they had reached the end of the 'prog' rope and mutated their sound. I'm not saying their stuff through signals wasn't great stuff... it was..however I think it could easily be called....hahah prog related AOR. The albums were obviously geared to sell mass quantities and the artistic aestetic that we love prog for.. and is one of the PRIME characteristics of what is prog and is not.. gone .. sold for MTV rotation, increased sales, and easier to digest albums. Few people would consider 90125 to be anything but Yes mutating into a prog related AOR band... Rush was very similar in the early 80's.. just done with less emphasis on songwriting and more on instrumental showmanship. My two cents as always of course hahah
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I do not believe that Rush went the AOR route or looked for MTV rotation. Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures were meant as explorations of the shorter song format but were also a "been there done that" reaction to side long epics as opposed to any move towards broadening their appeal.
The simple proof of this is Signals. Anyone who believes that work is a commercial effort has his head in the clouds.Signals was almost conceived as an antedote to the popularity that the previous two albums had created for the band. Peart in particular hated the fact that all sorts of "undesirable" people came out of the woodwork and latched onto the band and the band decided to veer off in a slightly different direction once more. The simple fact of the matter is that if Rush were so intent on breaking into the upper-stratosphere of rock stardom they would have brought in a new vocalist. They could have gone on releasing carbon-copies of Waves or Pictures ad infinitum and maybe been an even bigger commercial success than they ultimately are.
Rush have always gone their own way as far as their record contract and artistic integrity is concerned-in fact they are legends in the industry precisely for this fact.It was mentioned at both their induction into the Juno Hall Of Fame and also when they were given The Canadian Order Of Merit.It seems obvious to me that if you look at their total output, commerciality has never been a consideration and using 2112 as a guide they seem to have been relatively free of record label interference.2112 was a make or break album for them yet they went for a side-long concept almost in defiance of outside pressures.The fact that they were proved correct and went onto commercial success does not mean that commerciality is at the core of their music.
Mickey,the following is a perfect example of the phenomena "what I think, is what I know"
"The albums were obviously geared to sell mass quantities and the artistic aestetic that we love prog for.. and is one of the PRIME characteristics of what is prog and is not.. gone .. sold for MTV rotation, increased sales, and easier to digest albums"
Pure speculation presented as fact. Utter nonesense too. You may be familiar with Rush's recorded output but you have proved conclusively that have no knowledge of the band itself.You cannot compare Yes and Rush's 80s output without comparing the relative dynamics of those bands. Yes weren't even Yes for starters...
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: July 28 2006 at 17:53 |
Tony R wrote:
micky wrote:
hahah...
well Erik.. of course we all simply call them as we see them... but to
me, the turn to AOR away from pure prog is quite obvious.. and
was noted by the band due to their percieved limitations on
Hemispheres. They knew they had reached the end of the 'prog'
rope and mutated their sound. I'm not saying their stuff through
signals wasn't great stuff... it was..however I think it could easily
be called....hahah prog related AOR. The albums were
obviously geared to sell mass quantities and the artistic aestetic that
we love prog for.. and is one of the PRIME characteristics of what is
prog and is not.. gone .. sold for MTV rotation, increased sales, and
easier to digest albums. Few people would consider 90125 to be
anything but Yes mutating into a prog related AOR band... Rush was very
similar in the early 80's.. just done with less emphasis on songwriting
and more on instrumental showmanship. My two cents as always of
course hahah
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I do not believe that Rush went the AOR route or looked for MTV
rotation. Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures were meant as
explorations of the shorter song format but were also a "been there
done that" reaction to side long epics as opposed to any move towards
broadening their appeal.
The simple proof of this is Signals. Anyone who believes that
work is a commercial effort has his head in the clouds.Signals was
almost conceived as an antedote to the popularity that the previous two
albums had created for the band. Peart in particular hated the fact
that all sorts of "undesirable" people came out of the woodwork and
latched onto the band and the band decided to veer off in a slightly
different direction once more. The simple fact of the matter is that if
Rush were so intent on breaking into the upper-stratosphere of rock
stardom they would have brought in a new vocalist. They could have gone
on releasing carbon-copies of Waves or Pictures ad infinitum and maybe
been an even bigger commercial success than they ultimately are.
Rush have always gone their own way as far as their record
contract and artistic integrity is concerned-in fact they are legends
in the industry precisely for this fact.It was mentioned at both their
induction into the Juno Hall Of Fame and also when they were given The
Canadian Order Of Merit.It seems obvious to me that if you look at
their total output, commerciality has never been a consideration and
using 2112 as a guide they seem to have been relatively free of record
label interference.2112 was a make or break album for them yet they
went for a side-long concept almost in defiance of outside
pressures.The fact that they were proved correct and went onto
commercial success does not mean that commerciality is at the core of
their music.
Mickey,the following is a perfect example of the phenomena "what I think, is what I know"
"The albums were obviously geared to sell mass quantities and
the artistic aestetic that we love prog for.. and is one of the PRIME
characteristics of what is prog and is not.. gone .. sold for MTV
rotation, increased sales, and easier to digest albums"
Pure speculation presented as fact. Utter nonesense too. You may
be familiar with Rush's recorded output but you have proved
conclusively that have no knowledge of the band itself.You cannot
compare Yes and Rush's 80s output without comparing the relative
dynamics of those bands. Yes weren't even Yes for starters...
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hahha.... no wonder I like you Tony.... you have my temper when you get
rilied up. It's how I see Rush based on 20+ years of
listening to them... the Rush/AOR connection is far from nonsense for
as many who see it as I do.. it's all in how you look at it. If I
have some time later... I'll come back to your post... but honestly my
friend.... I could do without the attitude hahha. It's not geared toward constructive conversation hahahha
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659
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Posted: July 28 2006 at 18:12 |
Micky, be careful to suggest that Rush had intentions to flood the commercial market because, as Tony R wrote, they could have sold way more but they always found a balance between sales and quality. I said this despite my frustrations about their post-A Show Of Hands-era (I stopped buying Rush studio albums) ...
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: July 28 2006 at 18:26 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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