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crimson thing View Drop Down

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Posted: July 18 2006 at 05:40

Teaflax wrote:

You are talking about "One nation under God", right? The one with "In God we trust" on the money? The one where you have to swear on the Bible to become the President? Extreme purging, my gluteus maximus.

...Jim Royle lives....

..and your serious point is a good one....my American sister-in-law doesn't believe in God....and yet she did a distinct double take & looked shocked when I declared myself openly to be an atheist...."go figure" as they say.....

"Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS

JrKASperov View Drop Down

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Posted: July 18 2006 at 09:38

Thinking America is serving God is like demonstrating naked against nudity.

Epic.

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 19 2006 at 10:52

Teaflax wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

The extreme purging of anyhting remotely religious from any institution touched by the U.S government.

You are talking about "One nation under God", right? The one with "In God we trust" on the money? The one where you have to swear on the Bible to become the President? Extreme purging, my gluteus maximus.

I'm talking more about a ridiculous action like trying to remove a cross from a Korean War Veterans' cemetary.

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Check out about any comedian's act and there will be an anti-christian joke in there. George Carlin will even come out and tell you blatantly in his act because for some reason he thinks he is a philosopher instead of a sub-par comedian.

Sub-par? George Carlin is probably one of the five most influential and important comics of all time, with Lenny Bruce, Richard Pryor, Bill Cosby and Bill Hicks - at least if you ask professionals, whose opinions ought to count for something.

Now, that four of those five are pretty damned anti-religious says more about the prevailing mores of the US, because good comics target the powerful and the ossified.

Besides, if Carlin is all you can come up with of the supposedly powerful trend of anti-religionism in the US - a guy who does an HBO special every other year - it's really not that pervasive, I would say.

You said it yourself, he's very influential. I can't remember the names of every comedian I see on comedy central.

Who's a good comic in your book, BTW? Larry, The Cable Guy? Dane Cook?
Bill Hicks is actually my favorite comedian. Along with those listed by you I also really enjoy Jerry Seinfeld and Robin Williams.

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Yes, I realize that an atheist will not be elected to public office, but that require the majority of America, the working class chum to elect you. They tend to be religious, but the mainstream consists not of the working class and tends to be anti-religious.

The majority = the mainstream, so you're just typing nonsense now.

The mainstream is not necessarily the majority. The mainstream is the opinion that you see and hear on radio, tv, etc. Nobody is asking a redneck in Mississippi his opinion; instead, we ask actors and people in the public light who tend to be liberal.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

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Posted: July 19 2006 at 11:02

Sean Trane wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Getting back to the facts: human justice is nothing to do with divine justice. Two completely different things! Human justice is real and should be applied ciorrectly without having that possible divine (and completely hypothetical) justice getting in the way.

Christian hating has become widely popular in the mainstream. Comedians, Actors, and musicians can all make an easy audiance by simply targeting religion. >> a little fun poking is definitely no hate spreading, and let's face religions and their dogma are easily satyrized, but not more so than

Hardly fun poking there's a bias. Go to a local University, mention you're Christian, and try to join in a discussion. Watch how quickly you're ignored.

Even with crimes that have high recidivst rates, that only puts a percentage on the chance of them commiting the murder again. Not necessarily enough especially since locking them up forever will serve the same purpose. Again you speak of one time murderers and therefore avoid the real subject at stake here! I am speaking of repeating murderers, meaning that we are not dealing with first time murderers: of course with first time killers, there is a high non-recidivist rate. Thank god for that (if you will pardon that)

I'm not speaking of first time. The same applies to repeated murderers. What, like a third time recidivist will suddendly see the light and stop killing???? And I suppose that you would like to be the one who finally made him see the light?!?!

Even in the extreme cases of serial murders there's an alternative to stop their killling sprees.

I don't see the movie putting that message across. The entire time Jodie Foster converses with Anthony Hopkins, you are reminded of just how sick and demented Hannibal is. OK weak point from me even if he (Lecter) does get away free at the end of the movie

Judge's pay for the murder, that's preposterous. If I commit a mistake on the job (I am a safety consultant on top of it, so I know what I am talking about) that cost somebody's life I will have to pay for damages and if I was negligent about it I may even end up in jail. Why can't a judge be paying for his mistakes if he does a wrong judgment and releases someone that is going to kill a few more times???? Putting responsability on the judge about his decision and what happens as a result of his judgment shpould solve a lot of problems, I think.

Some of that comes from the fact that unions have flung off the handle and gained more control than businesses. There's also a difference between a subjective act like sentencing, and a foreman not replacing a rusted security railing. The same goes for the employer who does not worry about the safety of his workers. His decision of buying a new technology that is not well known abnd can produced health damages to his employees is punishable by law, although he did not mean to harm them.

Everybody must face the consequences of their professional acts, why could judges not be doing the same. Not sentencing correctly a repeated murderer to death and replacing it with a life emprisonment is only causing him to be wanting to escape (no jail is break-free), but he will do so again just in order to keep his freedom as long as possible.

HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THE FURTHER LOSS OF INNOCENT LIVES PAST THE SECOND INTENTIONAL MURDER , OTHER THAN BY A JUSTICE NOT WILLING TO DO THEIR JOB, BECAUSE OF THEIR FEAR OF A POSSIBLE DIVINE JUSTICE?

FURTHERMORE HOW DO YOU THINK THAT THIS HIGHLY HYPOTHETICAL JUSTICE WILL JUDGE YOUR ACTS OF LENIENCY THAT CAUSED FURTHER DEATHS???????

Then the gun companies should pay when someone is killed with a gun. >> Actually they should be since they build deadly weapons, and those "tools" are designed to kill. Common sense strikes again, thank you very much

And knive companies should be sued for deaths using knives too I suppose? Why not car companies, those dangerous things cause more deaths than guns. Knives and cars can be dangerous if not used properly or against common sense. you can stuff an apple in the wrong hole and even an appple becomes dangerous, but you will not do that. Guns are made to kill (knives to cut , but not kill >>> it is a question of the finality of the object) and using them safely is illusory. Weapons manufacturers should actually pay for the crimes their products commit. It is a lot harder to kill someone when you have to actually do it physically by plunging a knive into another man's body rather than putting lead into him from a distance

And you claim to be for personal responsibility. So manufacturing something used to kill others makes you a murderer? Guns are also used for recreation and sport. They don't exist solely to kill. Knives weren't created to cut things; they were created to kill. Charge the knife companies too.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Teaflax

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Posted: July 19 2006 at 16:06

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I'm talking more about a ridiculous action like trying to remove a cross from a Korean War Veterans' cemetary.

Hardly "The extreme purging of anyhting remotely religious from any institution touched by the U.S government" that you first decried.

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Limbaugh, Coulter, Horowitz, Malkin, Brooks, O'Reilly, Bennett, Novak, Bozell - those are the people in the public light who are asked - the ones who frame the discourse, who appear on the panels, who debate the issues.

That's your political mainstream, right there - and it's tilting hard hard Right.

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Posted: July 19 2006 at 16:14

People don't go to their talkshow hosts for their opinions, they go to Holywood and CNN.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

cuncuna

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Posted: July 19 2006 at 16:25

TheProgtologist wrote:

Do you pay taxes?Each of those men will cost the American taxpayer between 80-100k a year.

Do you really want your hard earned tax dollars to go for supporting those animals for life?

I agree with you, but do not say "animals"; since Animals kill for survive. I would go for "monsters".

¡Beware of the Bee!

crimson thing View Drop Down

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Posted: July 19 2006 at 17:25

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^^

People don't go to their talkshow hosts for their opinions, they go to Holywood and CNN.

.....saves having to go to all the bother of assessing the facts & making up one's own mind, I suppose....

"Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS

Teaflax

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Posted: July 20 2006 at 01:32

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^^

People don't go to their talkshow hosts for their opinions, they go to Holywood and CNN.

Really? Do you honestly believe that George Clooney and Howard Stern run and define the national discourse more than Limbaugh and Hannity? When was the last time you saw them frame an issue or be asked to comment like Brooks, Horowitz, Malkin, etc.? When it comes to punditry, to talk radio and to news anchors, there are two flavors; neutral or unabashedly right wing (the one notable exception would be Keith Olbermann).

Besides, mot of the people I listed were not hosts, but you could add some to it: Cavuto, Stossel, O'Reilly, Hume, Scarbourough - even Matthews and Russert. Yes, "even" CNN skews right, what with hiring people like Glenn Beck and Bill Bennett.

And as the legend of the Liberal stab in the back and the anti-war Media is being built by Right Wing personalities and to set up scape goats for the by now inevitable failure in Iraq ("If you'd just cheered harder and not revealed anything that went wrong, we would have won! b*****ds! Traitors!"), you have the gall to claim that actors criticizing Bush are shaping people's opinions.

That's rich when the right are regularly painting anyone left of Joe Lieberman as "soft on terror", "pro-al-Qaida", traitors and "un-American".

When was it we heard that last expression with any regularity? Let me think...

Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 20 2006 at 02:09

Yes I honestly believe they do.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Teaflax

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Posted: July 20 2006 at 02:54

Show me one concept, statement or idea floated by Clooney or any other actor or openly Liberal entertainer in the last year that has made it into national discourse as "common wisdom".

I can easily cite you ten such launched from the Right wing and succesfully internalized as "truths" even by people in the left. Let me start with "Democrats are virulently opposed to religion".

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Posted: July 20 2006 at 04:09

obviously have to do some editing here

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

>> a little fun poking is definitely no hate spreading, and let's face religions and their dogma are easily satyrized, but not more so than

Hardly fun poking there's a bias. Go to a local University, mention you're Christian, and try to join in a discussion. Watch how quickly you're ignored. >>> does this really make you wonder why? For centuries if you announced you did not believe, you got banned or burned on pyres, so in just return getting ignored is a justice you religious should gladly agree with!!! Furthermore, this is hardly fashionable!!! In Europe , this "OK, guy! We know what your good book says in terms of retrograd ideas - divorce, adultery, euthanasia, abortion - , so do not keep repeating it , we understood what you have to say, now get lost" attitude has been in the mainstream for the last 70 years >> not a fashion, but a normal evolution from some people wanting to impose their own privarte beliefs on everyone. I mean if religious people do not want to divorce, abort, enthanize and adulterize, fine with me >> don't do it. But KEEP IT TO YOURSELF AND YOUR PRIVATE SPHERE, religion is of a private matter, like it or not!!!!!!!!!!!! But do not force your retrograd sentiments onto others, by destroying family planning clinnics etc...

Even in the extreme cases of serial murders there's an alternative to stop their killling sprees. What else do you suggest??? life imprisonment???? name one single safe jailbreak-free prison>>> wow!!!! advancing the debates with you is extremely difficult if you are still getting back to that single line of yours of not taking away one human life on the account that your hypothetical god would not like it!!!

HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THE FURTHER LOSS OF INNOCENT LIVES PAST THE SECOND INTENTIONAL MURDER , OTHER THAN BY A JUSTICE NOT WILLING TO DO THEIR JOB, BECAUSE OF THEIR FEAR OF A POSSIBLE DIVINE JUSTICE?

FURTHERMORE HOW DO YOU THINK THAT THIS HIGHLY HYPOTHETICAL JUSTICE WILL JUDGE YOUR ACTS OF LENIENCY THAT CAUSED FURTHER DEATHS???????

You think that threatening judges with the consequences of their sentencings will encourage them to make the most non-biased decision when it comes to sentencing? Yeah, that won't pull them one way or the other. Its easily justified. There's no way in knowing if the person will escape prison and kill again. >>> someone facing life emprisonment with no hope of being set free WILL escape and defend his life by killing even more to keep his escaped freedom, no need to be a seer to know this!! It's not the judges fault. >> his fault for not taking the right decision, if possibility is given to him. Remember I am AGAINST capital punishment, except in hopeless dangerous cases

And you claim to be for personal responsibility. So manufacturing something used to kill others makes you a murderer? Guns are also used for recreation and sport They don't exist solely to kill. .<<< Bullcrap >>> if you use firearm for "sport", the intent is to kill the target as in hunting .

Knives weren't created to cut things; they were created to kill.Come on, guy, get real which knives are designed in the purpose of killing (outside army weapons maybe) >> not even hunting knives are designed to kill >> nobody attacks/hunts a hare or a bear with a knife

Charge the knife companies too. >>> you make sound debating difficult with such dumb reasonnings and pure bad faith >> just so you avoid admitting being wrong

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 20 2006 at 21:13

Teaflax wrote:

Show me one concept, statement or idea floated by Clooney or any other actor or openly Liberal entertainer in the last year that has made it into national discourse as "common wisdom".

I can easily cite you ten such launched from the Right wing and succesfully internalized as "truths" even by people in the left. Let me start with "Democrats are virulently opposed to religion".

I appologize I can't give you a particular statement. I can just tell you that from my experiance in various universities, jobs, and from simply living and interacting in the city, that the majority of people get their opinions from hollywood and music over anything else.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 20 2006 at 21:27

Sean Trane wrote:

obviously have to do some editing here

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

>> a little fun poking is definitely no hate spreading, and let's face religions and their dogma are easily satyrized, but not more so than

Yes, because all christians go around bombing abortion clinics. Christians commit murder, and here's a startling idea, non christians commit murder too. I don't see your point at all. I don't want abortion, euthanasia, or the death penalty so I fight against them. That's not pushing my beliefs on others; that's expressing my opinion in a democracy.

So since in the past aetheist were ignored it's only right that now christians are seen as blubbering idiots? That's ridiculous, the very fact that you would refer to that as justice makes me sick.

Why do you bring God into this? I've never said I was catholic. I've never based anything I said on religion or religious books. I'm going on morality here that we all agree with: murder is wrong. I understand you have a bias against religious people, but comeon let an opportunity to insult religion go.

HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THE FURTHER LOSS OF INNOCENT LIVES PAST THE SECOND INTENTIONAL MURDER , OTHER THAN BY A JUSTICE NOT WILLING TO DO THEIR JOB, BECAUSE OF THEIR FEAR OF A POSSIBLE DIVINE JUSTICE?

FURTHERMORE HOW DO YOU THINK THAT THIS HIGHLY HYPOTHETICAL JUSTICE WILL JUDGE YOUR ACTS OF LENIENCY THAT CAUSED FURTHER DEATHS???????

"In 1998, the most recent year for which data are available from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 6,530 people escaped or were AWOL from state prisons. That was a little more than one-half of 1 percent of the total population of 1,100,224 state prisoners."

I couldn't find statistics for how many of those escapees commit murder before recapture, but I'm going to say it's around 5% of the 1/2% coming out to be .025%.

Killing and murder are two completely different things. If you're going to say you're against a gun killing for sport you better at least be a vegetarian. You're still wrong for you thinking that, but its better to be wrong and not a hypocrite.

I said were invented for killing. Their main use has changed obviously but they were created to kill so comeon that's your reasoning.

Charge the knife companies too. >>> you make sound debating difficult with such dumb reasonnings and pure bad faith >> just so you avoid admitting being wrong

That dumb reasoning is yours. Says alot about your arguement.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

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Posted: July 21 2006 at 03:52

I'll be taking red here

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

obviously have to do some editing here

Yes, because all christians go around bombing abortion clinics >>> not all but the overwhelming majority of those attacking abortion clinics are religious . Christians commit murder, and here's a startling idea, non christians commit murder too. >>> I never claimed to opposite.

I don't see your point at all. I don't want abortion, euthanasia, or the death penalty so I fight against them. That's not pushing my beliefs on others; that's expressing my opinion in a democracy. >>>

So since in the past aetheist were ignored >>> and killed, murdered!!!!! it's only right that now christians are seen as blubbering idiots? That's ridiculous, the very fact that you would refer to that as justice makes me sick. >>> Certainly beats getting killed, banned or jailed, which happened for centuries, and it is no justice, just a side effect!!!

Why do you bring God into this? I've never said I was catholic >>> you are the one if I am not mistaken that claims that killing is against morality and this morality is against what your christian beliefs state, right? I've never based anything I said on religion or religious books.Not for what I gathered in previous posts! I'm going on morality here that we all agree with: murder is wrong. I understand you have a bias against religious people, but come on let an opportunity to insult religion go. >>> what you call an insult is strictly a fact to me (all I say is that this god is highly hypothetical and that the fanatics choosing to believe in this deity or divinity are trying to force their sacred writings on the totality of the country >>> no insult there) , you are the one being overly sensitive about this.

I couldn't find statistics for how many of those escapees commit murder before recapture, but I'm going to say it's around 5% of the 1/2% coming out to be .025%. >>> still too much >>> how do you account for these victims? Fate? or wrongful justice?? I say the second!

Killing and murder are two completely different things. WOW , you astound me with this one!!! Your use of semantics must mean that you are now in the ropes of the ring of this bout: killing and murdering is not the same thing? you mean that murderer and unvoluntary manslaughter is not the same thing, I could agree with you. but deaths with guns is obviously murder If you're going to say you're against a gun killing for sport you better at least be a vegetarian. >>> I hate hunting or "sportshooting which are sore excuses for people in the firearm industry and their puppets buying the bloody things. Nothing to do with being vegetarians, since I am omnivore and can even eat hares and elk meat (>>> watch out , those ropes of the rings may me giving way

) . And please do not use the fishing gear as potential murdering weapons either, in your following arguments >>> you'd appear to all as a idiotic >>> just thought I'd cut the grass from below your feet.

You're still wrong for you thinking that, but its better to be wrong and not a hypocrite. Apparently not for you!!!

I said were invented for killing. >>> in prehistory , yes Knives were first use to cut and hunt and then kill other humans. Their main use has changed obviously but they were created to kill so come on that's your reasoning.>>> today's knives are not designed to kill >> your ridiculous use of semantics just to stop admitting defeat is very tiring. I do not see much more point to keep this up!

Charge the knife companies too. >>> you make sound debating difficult with such dumb reasonnings and pure bad faith >> just so you avoid admitting being wrong

That dumb reasoning is yours. Says alot about your arguement.

You have proven to be a tough cookie and fighting/debating with many blows that I would call useless. To say I expected otherwise from you after two replies, would be lying.

We still agree that Capital punishment is wrong , though , but you want to observe that rule strictly and make no exception (being an integrist) and I am saying that not everything is back or white and exception MUST be made , when forced to.

So we agree on what I would say is 98% of this death penalty policy, and all our "debate/bickering" has been about the remaining 2%. >>> to much energy to keep it up.

Good day from my part!!!

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2006 at 13:10

I'll be in bolded hot pink.

Sean Trane wrote:

I'll be taking red here

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

obviously have to do some editing here

Sure does beat being killed, but that hardly justifies that. I don't even know why this is still a point of our arguement. You already admitted the bias existed which was my point.

Why do you bring God into this? I've never said I was catholic >>> you are the one if I am not mistaken that claims that killing is against morality and this morality is against what your christian beliefs state, right? I've said it's immoral in the sense of our universal morality that murder is wrong. I've never based anything I said on religion or religious books.Not for what I gathered in previous posts! Find me the posts were I've brough the bible or canon into this arguement. I'm going on morality here that we all agree with: murder is wrong. I understand you have a bias against religious people, but come on let an opportunity to insult religion go. >>> what you call an insult is strictly a fact to me (all I say is that this god is highly hypothetical and that the fanatics choosing to believe in this deity or divinity are trying to force their sacred writings on the totality of the country >>> no insult there) , you are the one being overly sensitive about this.

Oopps? Honestly, I don't know. How do you account for the murder's original victims.

In this instance I was saying that murdering a human being, and shooting and killing a deer are two completely different things. You really missed my point.

If you're going to say you're against a gun killing for sport you better at least be a vegetarian. >>> I hate hunting or "sportshooting which are sore excuses for people in the firearm industry and their puppets buying the bloody things. Nothing to do with being vegetarians, since I am omnivore and can even eat hares and elk meat (>>> watch out , those ropes of the rings may me giving way

I really don't get what you're saying here. You eat elk. That elk was killed with a gun from somebody hunting.

You're still wrong for you thinking that, but its better to be wrong and not a hypocrite. Apparently not for you!!!

I don't see why gun companies should be charged, and countless other manufacturers of murderous instruments shouldn't.

Charge the knife companies too. >>> you make sound debating difficult with such dumb reasonnings and pure bad faith >> just so you avoid admitting being wrong

That dumb reasoning is yours. Says alot about your arguement.

You have proven to be a tough cookie and fighting/debating with many blows that I would call useless. To say I expected otherwise from you after two replies, would be lying.

I've admitted an exception if you'd look back to my previous posts, but even then I admit it as a reluctant exception. I still have trouble calling it justice.

So we agree on what I would say is 98% of this death penalty policy, and all our "debate/bickering" has been about the remaining 2%. >>> to much energy to keep it up.

Good day from my part!!!

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

crimson thing View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2006 at 13:58

Boy o boy.......you need sunglasses to read this thread.......

"Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS

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Posted: July 21 2006 at 16:42

crimson thing wrote:

Boy o boy.......you need sunglasses to read this thread.......

you can take them off , now I'm eclipsing myself

One more thing though.

Men do not need to hunt to feed nowadays so that kind of animal murdering should be prosecuted too.

I do not really believe that, but I want to try to approach Equ's sense of bad faith

Not even coming to his waist

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2006 at 17:33

^ I have no idea what you mean by that.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: July 22 2006 at 04:57

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly what I mean

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

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