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Topic ClosedGenesis – Jumping the shark

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Poll Question: When did Genesis "Jump the shark"?
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Cesar Inca View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2004 at 09:05

 

Two things:

1. I'm starting to go back to my first instincts: Genesis jumped the shark in the time of the release of Abacab. A nice swansong would have been a live album from their Duke tour.

2. Maybe, if hackett would have been properly replaced by a guitarist/composer, with a personality of his own, and at the same time, able to combine the band's new direction with their " artirtically ambitious tradition". Just a bit of historical fiction trivia...

  

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peringo2 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2004 at 11:57

I thought hey jumped the shark with "Calling All Stations", then I gave that record a close listen, and fell in love with it (specially the title track and the mamooth "The Dividing Line" which, among friends, has become and anthem and an excuse for homoseually abusing each other).

Thus, for me, they never jumped the shark. They did what they have to do to last over long distance without tediously repeating themselves. The fact that my favourite Genesis songs are "Mama","One for the Vien", "Dreaming While You Sleep", "The Brazilian", "The Dividing Line" and "Dodo" acknowledges my lousy opinion. (I love "Whodunnit" as well. Ahhh, that "pep" Tony sound...)

"Your sperm's in the gutter/ Your love's in the sink"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2004 at 18:23

Ivan from peru are you my twin brother?Phil Collins turned Genesis into pop rocky trash.He had only one thing in mind and that was popodom.The only Genesis is Gabriel's Genesis.Yes 'Trick'was great and 'Wind' had some very fine moments therafter it was straight down the toilet.When Hackett left the writing was well and truly on the wall.All notions of prog went up the chimney.

                                    temporarily Rael

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2004 at 00:15

Quote Genesis had to change musically.It was inevitable.Be grateful they recorded some great masterpeices like 'Suppers Ready'.ATTWT is a perfectly 'sevicable' album even if it isn't as 'progressive' as the others.Sometimes I like to listen to music that isn't so 'progressive' even if it is made by a progressive rock band.But if people want to hate it then that is their perogative I suppose.Seems a terrible waste of energy though!

Eberybody has too change, but I wouldn't like to be you if ELP recorded something like Illegal Alien or Who Dunnit?

When you love the music of a band so much, you can't accept they waste their talents doing crappy music, there's a differnce between changing and selling out, I believe Genesis sold out.

No progressive  band had such a dramatic change, and most of them returned to prog after two or three poppy adventures.

Iván

PS: Temporarily Rael, I have another twin brother in Wisconsin who uses Rael62 as his nick, so maybe we are triplets.


 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2004 at 02:55
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Quote Genesis had to change musically.It was inevitable.Be grateful they recorded some great masterpeices like 'Suppers Ready'.ATTWT is a perfectly 'sevicable' album even if it isn't as 'progressive' as the others.Sometimes I like to listen to music that isn't so 'progressive' even if it is made by a progressive rock band.But if people want to hate it then that is their perogative I suppose.Seems a terrible waste of energy though!

Eberybody has too change, but I wouldn't like to be you if ELP recorded something like Illegal Alien or Who Dunnit?

When you love the music of a band so much, you can't accept they waste their talents doing crappy music, there's a differnce between changing and selling out, I believe Genesis sold out.

No progressive  band had such a dramatic change, and most of them returned to prog after two or three poppy adventures.

Iván

PS: Temporarily Rael, I have another twin brother in Wisconsin who uses Rael62 as his nick, so maybe we are triplets.


 

Actually I prefer ATTWT to ANY ELP or Yes album recorded after 1978.You could argue that Genesis 'sold out' after Selling England Bt The Pound.They clearly wanted to crack America hence all the USA references on Lamb Lies Down On Broadway.Some of the later Genesis music isn't that bad.I can listen to 'Domino' or 'Home By The Sea' without being sick 

Generally speaking all the music ELP,Yes and Genesis produced after 1978 is crap compared to the 'glory years' of 1970-1973.

 



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Cesar Inca View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2004 at 09:16

 

"No progressive  band had such a dramatic change, and most of them returned to prog after two or three poppy adventures."

My friend Iván is right. GENESIS chose the the road of pop never to turn back to their grandiouse roots again. ELP did return to prog in 'Black Moon' (though not being as grea tas theur classics, you can tell that they were going back to their roots). After an unabashed AOR phase, KANSAS returned to prog from 1995 onwards. Si did YES now and then with the 2 Keys to Ascension, and Magnification. Even earlier, JETHRO TULL managed to create such good albums as Crest of a Knave and Rock Island after 2 semi-op albums and a flagrant pop album. And what about CAMEL? Again, being admittedly inferior in quality than their great 70s efforts, Andy Latimer's and co.'s four last studio albums are clearly defined under prog patterns.

Far from English speaking lands, LE ORME have been doing some damn good back-to-prog-roots albums during the last 10 years, and we have witnessed the gloriuos comebacks of METAMORFOSI, BALLETTO DI BRONZO, CAMPO DI MARTE.

It is possible to keep on going on the road of musical creativity and evolve without detaching oneself from their own roots. ELP, YES, KANSAS and others knew that - how come GENESIS didn't? In fact, I see no evolution between Abacab and We Can't Dance, except that they gave up on horn arrangements pretty soon.

On teh other hand, I want to reiterate that I find ATTWT pretty enjoyable, though a bit irregular; Duke seems to me a bit less enojoyable, though not that irregular.

Regards.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2004 at 13:40
For me, they lost it completely after We Can't Dance. That was
the album that turned me right off them. I could handle tracks on
Invisible Touch, Genesis, but that was it. Saying that, so what?
They'd evolved into something completely different from what
they'd been, but it was their right to do what they wanted. They
gained a whole new audience and sold an awful lot of records.
Sure, I prefer the old stuff, but I don't see the change of style as
being some terrible act of treachery. Hell, it's only music. I don't
think Genesis or indeed many of the so-called prog bands
discussed here feel quite as passionately about these issues of
what is prog and what is not prog as many of their fans do.
Their interest lies in making the music they want to make at any
given time and hoping it appeals to enough people. I never fklt
that there was anything forced about Genesis' move into the
mainstream. Love them or hate them, those hit singles and hit
albums came very naturally. Whereas I do think that other
bands - Camel, Gentle Giant - had to push themselves hard to
write poppier, shorter songs and it wasn't as natural a fit. Credit
where it's due, Genesis made for great pop songwriters.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2004 at 17:28

Originally posted by charliefreak charliefreak wrote:

For me, they lost it completely after We Can't Dance. That was
the album that turned me right off them. I could handle tracks on
Invisible Touch, Genesis, but that was it. Saying that, so what?
They'd evolved into something completely different from what
they'd been, but it was their right to do what they wanted. They
gained a whole new audience and sold an awful lot of records.
Sure, I prefer the old stuff, but I don't see the change of style as
being some terrible act of treachery. Hell, it's only music. I don't
think Genesis or indeed many of the so-called prog bands
discussed here feel quite as passionately about these issues of
what is prog and what is not prog as many of their fans do.
Their interest lies in making the music they want to make at any
given time and hoping it appeals to enough people.

After reading this post, I've been trying to figure out why that phrase "only music" irritates me so much. The first thought that came to me was that "only music" pretty well characterizes the 'disposable product' view of music that the consumer-driven industry thrives upon. It's my impression (and I'll be the first to admit I'm not completely in touch with reality) that people who like prog generally regard their favorite bands or albums or songs as something special and meaningful- that they posess a quality that elevates the music above "only music" status. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe a lot of you out there prefer progressive rock over other genres the same way you prefer italian food over chinese food, or boxers over briefs.

I don't think anyone really cares if Genesis (or any other of 'our' bands) think of themselves as prog or not. I'm pretty sure most of the people who post to this site are aware that the discussions about categorizing and labeling bands and genres are just a bit of fun and a little intellectual exercise. Nor are most of us going to say that a band is better or worse because it is or isn't clearly "progressive rock". If Genesis had changed their name after (for instance) Howe left, this entire discussion would be moot as the resulting band would have been at best a secondary entry on this site, if it qualified for inclusion at all.

It depends on what you think "evolving" really entails...only the band themselves really know if they changed due to personal or musical growth, or wanted to attract new listeners, or wanted to make more money, or just got lazy. The whole 'jump the shark' concept is for fans to determine when something started getting worse instead of better. Or, for instance, when it stopped being an attempt to do something unique and meaningful and started being "only music".

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2004 at 18:00

Originally posted by James Lee James Lee wrote:

  If Genesis had changed their name after (for instance) Howe left, this entire discussion would be moot

 

Oh wow, man.... Howe left Genesis? I musta overslept, James. Which album did he play on? Abracabrafication?

Anyway.... I agree with your view regarding "only music." It's much more important than that to me. Even non-Prog music. There is a requirement beyond being a casual listener, a depth. There is a sense of loss when a musical hero turns out a sub-par effort or a blatantly commercial release. We have a sense of ownership, through support and promotion. When they simple change course it creates an alienation with those who understood that "deeper meaning."

Pickles, anyone?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2004 at 23:20
Darn it, next I'll be replacing Bruford with Alan White
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2004 at 06:37
I do take on board your points about prog being "more than
music". I share your passion for the music and it means a great
deal to me as well. I guess the point I was trying to make -
perhaps not well enough - is that I think some fans put their
musical heroes on too high a pedestal. And then experience a
"sense of loss" when they fail to live up to their expectations. I
stopped feeling that way a long time ago. This hasn't spoiled
my enjoyment of the records, but I'm not remotely surprised
when an artist I love "jumps the shark". Money, drugs,
commercial pressure - few bands are immune.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2004 at 06:54

Originally posted by danbo danbo wrote:

Anyway.... It's much more important than that to me. Even non-Prog music. There is a requirement beyond being a casual listener, a depth. There is a sense of loss when a musical hero turns out a sub-par effort or a blatantly commercial release. We have a sense of ownership, through support and promotion. When they simple change course it creates an alienation with those who understood that "deeper meaning."

I strongly agree, however if the "blatantly commercial release" is of high quality (eg., Supertramps' "Crime of the Century", Yes's "90125", Peter Gabriel's "So", Styx's "Grand Illusion", Rush's "Moving Pictures" (3 AOR releases)) then for me there is no sense of loss, but one of rediscovery.

IMHO. 

"Some things have to be believed to be seen."
-Ralph Hodgson
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2005 at 19:52

a Classic Poll

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2005 at 01:27

Without a doubt Abacab.  Duke is quite good, minus a few bad songs.  Once Phil Collins' Face Value Album went to #1, the band changed direction, simple as that.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2005 at 10:42

 

"Trick of the Tail" was the beginnig of a pre-death.

They floated, more or less, from "Trick" to "Duke" (the last decent album).

After "Duke" no Genesis at all !

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2005 at 21:11
When they released "Genesis"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2005 at 10:37
I'm gonna say when they released 'Abacab'- there was barely a prog moment on that affair, and every song was played better live in any case. At least 'Duke' had half a decent album- 'Abacab' had about 2 or 3 half decent tracks!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2005 at 10:47
They were always a decent band, (even though I dont like invisible touch or I cant dance) It just  went from being good progressive rock to being good pop. (although I must admit Duke heralded the end of what is my favourite band, but I cant be angry with them, its their music career not mine, if i dont like it I dont have to buy it)
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