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Tony R

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Joined: July 16 2004
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:00

A blast from the past:

Two great funny review threads from the pen of Uncle Easy Livin'

Enjoy!

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12220

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16302

chessman

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Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:07

Information, first and foremost. I find the reviews interesting, though I only read the ones that will appeal to me. I like to read about bands and albums I don't yet own, but am interested in, and find out what the majority of other people here think. Of course, you will always get a wide variety of thoughts and opinions, even on classic albums. But that can only be a good thing.

And, when I write a review, I try to be as fair and honest as I can; after all, it is only my opinion at the end of the day.

Nevertheless, if I genuinely don't like something, or find it bad to my ears, then I won't pussyfoot around it, I will say so.

But, thanks to this site, I have rekindled, in a big way, my interest in prog over the last two and a half years, and I visit here more regularly than any other site on the internet. It really is addictive and informative! Good stuff!

johnobvious View Drop Down

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Posted: July 12 2006 at 12:51

I find a good deal of the reviews helpful, but always take them with a grain of salt. Most amateur reviewers review what they like. I know I fall into the trap of finding an album I think is five starts and want to shout its praises to all, whereas with an album that is just okay, I won't take the time to review it. This has got to skew some of the averages. The dispassionate view takes a bit of a beating in a lot of instances. Thankfully, there are a lot of folks here that don't take that approach.

I also weary of reviews of albums that have already been dissected in every imaginable way. Could we possibly need another review of Close to the Edge? Is there anything more to say about Dark Side of the Moon? I prefer reviews of newer music where some mystery still lies and I need information to make an informed choice about buying. I will probably never review an album that already has over 20-30 reviews. Forget it.

All that being said, the people who put their time and effort into crafting informative reviews are what makes the site as good as it is.

Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Dr4Wazo

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Posted: July 12 2006 at 12:58

As you said, they're often better than the Rolling Stone!

by the way... is they any good prog-rock magazines?

"Mëem Otsilennhetëe Dros Sun Surra Steuhn Do Nansei"

titico

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Posted: July 12 2006 at 14:37

Every time that I log in the forum, I read all the topics I can, and from that I'm learning all days, something new about music, and obvioslly of progressive, and what I like more it's that all days there are new prog bands to listen to!

Take me As I AM!
From Venezuela or Italia? Both!

Peter

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Posted: July 12 2006 at 14:58

johnobvious wrote:

I find a good deal of the reviews helpful, but always take them with a grain of salt. Most amateur reviewers review what they like. I know I fall into the trap of finding an album I think is five starts and want to shout its praises to all, whereas with an album that is just okay, I won't take the time to review it. This has got to skew some of the averages. The dispassionate view takes a bit of a beating in a lot of instances. Thankfully, there are a lot of folks here that don't take that approach.

I also weary of reviews of albums that have already been dissected in every imaginable way. Could we possibly need another review of Close to the Edge? Is there anything more to say about Dark Side of the Moon? I prefer reviews of newer music where some mystery still lies and I need information to make an informed choice about buying. I will probably never review an album that already has over 20-30 reviews. Forget it.

All that being said, the people who put their time and effort into crafting informative reviews are what makes the site as good as it is.

John, I think, more to the point, that amateur reviewers tend to review what they own, and they tend to like the music in their own collections.

I tend to know what I am buying before I shell out my precious, limited $$. Also, most of my prog discs are CD replacements of stuff I used to own on vinyl, and thought worthy of replacing. Most of us simply can't afford to buy music "cold" or "on speculation." (Also, where is my motivation to buy --never mind repeatedly listen to -- a $20 - $25 disc I fear I may not like?)

"Real" reviewers/critics (ie, those who are paid for their work) are often given new albums to review by their employer, recording labels, and/or artists. We don't get that. (We can't even legally share MP3 copies for review purposes.) Thus -- and this continues to be a concern of mine -- you will find a disproportionate percentage of favourable reviews. Currently, I have only one CD left to review which I would give less than 3 stars to, but many which, IMO, warrant a four - five star rating.

Thus, I need people to send me some CDs they don't think I will like, if I want more "balance" in my ratings. I'll be damned if I'm going to hand over good money (and isn't all money "good?"

) for discs I have every reason to think I won't like, and will regret buying!

Aye, there's the rub....

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Drew

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Posted: July 12 2006 at 15:02

I tend not to read the longer reviews- and I take eveyone's opinion equally.

As far as if I have ever purchased a CD based on a written review- I don't think I have.

Trickster F. View Drop Down

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Posted: July 12 2006 at 15:12

Peter Rideout wrote:

Thus, I need people to send me some CDs they don't think I will like, if I want more "balance" in my ratings. I'll be damned if I'm going to hand over good money (and isn't all money "good?"

) for discs I have every reason to think I won't like, and will regret buying!

I don't see the sense in that, Peter.

-- Ivan

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Peter

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Posted: July 12 2006 at 15:27

Drew wrote:

I tend not to read the longer reviews- and I take eveyone's opinion equally.

As far as if I have ever purchased a CD based on a written review- I don't think I have.

Just as I feared!

In fact, if and when I review again, I have decided to make my efforts shorter for the sake of the "attention span/reading challenged"

(and also to make the task less daunting/akin to work, for me).

Some of us tend to undervalue the opinions of those who accumulate thousands upon thousands of posts within a few short months, as well. Such people seem much less concerned with the content or quality of their posts (or even getting some fresh air, or real friendship), than the sheer quantity of them -- as if that were any indication of the poster's suitabillity to be taken seriously. Sorry, but for me 10,000 posts in six months is an indication of immaturity, shallowness, and too many "im here' or "cya" type empty "chatter" posts. The shallow brook makes the most noise -- still waters run deep.

Present company excepted, of course!

Seriously though, I have often (especially when younger, and with more free money) purchased on the basis of a professional review, but never on the basis of a single one here (if buying re reviews here, I look for trends in multiple reviews -- not just one opinion).

Edited by Peter Rideout - July 12 2006 at 15:34

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Peter

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Posted: July 12 2006 at 15:32

ivansfr0st wrote:

) for discs I have every reason to think I won't like, and will regret buying!

I don't see the sense in that, Peter.

-- Ivan

Would you please expand upon that statement, Ivanhoe?

Are you paid for your reviews? Do you have unlimited funds for music? Do you like to pay for, own and experience things you don't like?

I honestly quite like the vast majority of the discs I own, as they were "informed" purchases.

Edited by Peter Rideout - July 12 2006 at 15:36

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Trickster F. View Drop Down

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Posted: July 12 2006 at 16:14

It makes no sense to send you music that you will fail to comprehend and thus will give a low mark. Personally I wouldn't send the countrary of someone's taste to anyone, if I am already very well aware that it will result in nothing but misunderstanding.

Peter, everything I have in my collection I enjoy thoroughly. Of course, if I don't like something, I won't buy it, but I may "borrow" it for the purpose of reviewing. Unfortunately, the conditions don't allow me to buy all of the discs I find to be immensely enjoyable either.

-- Ivan

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stonebeard View Drop Down

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Posted: July 12 2006 at 16:46

What I get:

Out of my own reviews : a sense of accomplishment.

Out of others' reviews : information

I usually review what I like, more by incident than purpose.

My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

johnobvious View Drop Down

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Posted: July 12 2006 at 17:06

ivansfr0st wrote:

It makes no sense to send you music that you will fail to comprehend and thus will give a low mark. Personally I wouldn't send the countrary of someone's taste to anyone, if I am already very well aware that it will result in nothing but misunderstanding.

-- Ivan

Along those lines, even on the "professional" sites they have certain reviewers who mainly do prog-metal or symphonic or whatever certain genre, so even those people aren't getting the whole scope of what is out there or can offer an unbiased opinion on whatever may come along. A prog-metal guy won't be asked to review an ambient album. We do not live in a vacuum where random music comes to our ears and we are asked to offer an opinion. Thus, few reviews can be characterized as 100% subjective.

Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Peter

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Posted: July 14 2006 at 12:46

ivansfr0st wrote:

It makes no sense to send you music that you will fail to comprehend and thus will give a low mark. Personally I wouldn't send the countrary of someone's taste to anyone, if I am already very well aware that it will result in nothing but misunderstanding.

-- Ivan

Note the operative word "if" in my post, Ivan. (perhaps I should have underlined the word, or used this fellow:

)

I was not being serious about people needing to send me stuff they don't think I will like, but that is the fundamental difference between reviews written by people who have paid for the album, and reviews written by those who get supplied all sorts of albums to review. We fans overwhelmingly own and buy what we like, or have a reasonable expectation of liking.

Still, if we want "professional" reviews and "balance," we thus need all sorts of discs to review (originals -- artwork, lyrics, credits, best quality sound, and all) -- not that that's going to happen!

I find it interesting (if not a bit worrisome and even condescending), though, that you seem to equate "liking" with "comprehending" or "understanding." If I like lots of early ELP, for example, but don't like Works Vol. 2, is that because I don't "comprehend" it (and am thus unfit to offer an opinion)? Do only favourable reviews indicate "comprehension" of the music?

Can a non-fan of "growling" perhaps offer an opinion of a "growling" disc that another non-fan of the technique might find useful? Should I delete my review of Haggard, or might other prog fans with tastes similar to my own find it informative of the disc's contents?

Do we only comprehend the things we support or enjoy? (I don't like fascism, for example, but I believe I comprehend it, and its primitive, xenophobic allure.) How will I know when I achieve "comprehension?" Only when I like what I hear?

I can imagine a cult leader saying "well, those non-believers just don't understand our enlighted movement."

No offense, please, but I think you're on some shaky philosophical ground here. (Though I do get the "thrust" of your point, and am enjoying this debate.

)

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Trickster F. View Drop Down

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Posted: July 14 2006 at 13:04

I think you overreact towards little words and sentences, Peter. Many people on the forums, including myself, don't think hours before using a sentence and many don't even speak English on a native level(and I haven't said a word in English since May, however, I've been typing a lot

). One may think he expresses himself precisely, but it may turn out the other way around later.

Of course, when I mentioned 'misunderstanding', I meant 'likes/dislikes". But then, think about it. In my eyes, if you give a Progressive Death Metal album, with growling and chuggy guitars, a one star review, will I think that this is really bad album, knowing that the person who reviewed it is very respected by me and whose opinion in, for example, 70's prog I find very reliable; or will I conclude that I should not believe you at all because extreme prog is not your cup of tea and you can not make a judgement without prejudices and knowing how to separate good extreme prog from bad?

Your way of making an example, comparing Prog-Metal with fasciiscm just shows that you are very difficult to create a conversation with full understanding from both sides, because what I am trying to make you understand is that there really is no "Progressive growl music" as a genre, as growls, shrieks and screams are just ways of singing, if you may, and beyond the vocals there is also music, which can be quite different and which has evolved a lot since the 70's, yet is often influenced by it. There are good bands, there are bad ones, and yet it is all subjective, because tastes are different and those "extreme growl" bands are also different from each other.

Many, myself included, would rather listen to a great growler singing in a band instead of somebody like James LaBrie from Dream Theater or 100th Peter Gabriel clone(who is my favourite singer, btw, don't get me wrong), but once again, without knowing all the nuances, that are not visible to an outsider, on how to judge music of this kind, an opinion of that outsider is very unreliable to trust and adapt.

-- Ivan

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Peter

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Posted: July 14 2006 at 13:41

ivansfr0st wrote:

I think you overreact towards little words and sentences, Peter. Many people on the forums, including myself, don't think hours before using a sentence and many don't even speak English on a native level(and I haven't said a word in English since May, however, I've been typing a lot

). One may think he expresses himself precisely, but it may turn out the other way around later.

I did consider that possibility, Ivan, and thanks for clearing that up. In my defense, I do work with words, and am language-oriented (thus lyrics and their themes really matter a lot to me, but not to others), and your written words are all I have available to react to. There is no tone of voice, body language, or real (prior) knowledge of each other to help guide us to mutual understanding.

Believe me, I do get your (valid) point. There is not much sense in a decided non-country fan, say, becoming a reviewer for a country mag, but so much falls under the umbrella of "prog" (ever more & more!) that surely my review of an album within a prog sub-genre I tend not to like can be useful to other prog fans with tastes similar to my own. If nothing else, I thus paint a clearer picture of my own tastes, and readers can then decide whether or not to "trust" my opinion on a given genre.

Please! I did NOT compare metal to fascism -- cut me some slack! Do you think I want all metal fans to hate me? (Some of them are my friends here!) Do you think I am that shallow, and an absolute idiot? My point was simply that "liking" and "understanding" are not the same! Gee whiz!

I don't like to watch "Barney and Friends," either, but I think I can "understand" it! (Note: I did NOT just compare metal fans to Barney fans!

)

Please don't just focus in on my example of growling. I might just as easily have used "disco elements" or "rapping," but I wanted to give an example drawn from an actual review of mine here. Please read the Haggard review in question: is it really useless and non-valid, or might some others feel the same as I, and appreciate knowing that the disc incorpoates "growling" and metal along with its Medieval & symphonic elements? (Even a fan of growilng might find that review useful: "Well, Mr Rideout really does not like the growling here, but I like that kind of singing, and he indicates that otherwise the disc is to his taste, so perhaps I'll check it out."

-- Ivan

Perhaps we should stop -- you seem to think that I am less interested in a debate re the respective validity of negative and favourable reviews, than I am in bashing metal and metal fans.

I was just trying to have a philosophical discussion with you about reviewing, and the fundamental differences between reviews written by a band's or genre's fans, and by those who are neutral, and who did not deliberately, and with some prior knowlede of likely content, shell out their own money for the disc. You seem determined to twist my words, and to take my dislike of a single vocal technique personally, or as an indication of a major flaw in my character.

Sorry to have offended you -- it certainly was not my aim.

Edited by Peter Rideout - July 14 2006 at 13:44

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Eetu Pellonpaa View Drop Down

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Posted: July 14 2006 at 14:23

It's good that there's a thread about the reviews. I have found many great new albums by reading them, and though nothing is ever perfect, the archives hold an enormous packet of interesting information!

Fitzcarraldo View Drop Down

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Posted: July 14 2006 at 14:34

Peter Rideout wrote:

There is not much sense in a decided non-country fan, say, becoming a reviewer for a country mag, but so much falls under the umbrella of "prog" (ever more & more!) that surely my review of an album within a prog sub-genre I tend not to like can be useful to other prog fans with tastes similar to my own. If nothing else, I thus paint a clearer picture of my own tastes, and readers can then decide whether or not to "trust" my opinion on a given genre.

This has also been my position when we have discussed this subject in these forums in the past. I do find it useful -- and interesting -- to read reviews by people who are not fans of a particular genre or sub-genre, particularly if the reviewer happens to have tastes similar to my own or is of a similar age or background. For one thing, some groups' output varies between albums and a particular album from a genre I am not normally interested in may turn out to be one I would like: take my reviews of OPETH's "Damnation" or AYREON's "Into The Electric Castle", for example (and I emphasise that three stars on this site means 'Good'). And for another thing, I like to read reviews of albums from genres/sub-genres of which I am a fan, by people who are not. It brings a new perspective to me, and sometimes makes me analyse more critically and realistically the album.

Read reviews by Fitzcarraldo

necromancing777 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 14 2006 at 14:39

Takeshi Kovacs wrote:

I find the reviews extremely informative. The main reason for this is that it points me in directions I would otherwise not have considered. I've been a fan of 'prog' related music since the early 80's, with Jethro Tull being my introduction (I still remember being derided by fans of Adam And The Ants etc at the time).

I went through the mid 80's neo-prog wave with Marillion being one of the flag bearers, whilst also getting into Genesis, Camel, Rush, Floyd, Eloy, Yes, Tangerine Dream etc en route.

Then there were the 'wilderness years' when I kind of gave up on music, partly out of disillusionment with the common fare that was masquerading as music, and partly out of ignorance, and just not keeping in touch with what was going on.

Not ashamed to say that this website has rekindled my interest in music, the right kind of music, and brought me into contact with a wealth of music I never knew existed, and would never have stumbled upon had it not been for the Prog Archives.

For example, new bands I've come to like (love?) in the last 18 months include Van Der Graaf Generator (how did I miss them out all this time - I remember them only because Theme One used to be played by Tommy Vance as a bit of link music on The Friday Rock Show when I was at school (they also used a Dixie Dregs snippet too I think)), Dream Theater (Scenes From A Memory is fantastic), Caravan (9 Feet Underground is just crazy), Opeth, Riverside, Anglagard, Anekdoten, Wobbler, Mannfred Mann's ASolar Power (I only previously had Budapest Live), Tool, Ayreon (and from this, the delightful Heather Findlay & Mostly Autumn), the fantastic Discipline, a lot of King Crimson I hadn't previuosly been into (Starless etc - how good is that?!?), just getting into Italian Prog scene, discovered Porcupine Tree, rediscovered IQ (Harvest of Souls is brilliant), starting to look at post experimental, like Kayo Dot, Don Caballero etc.

Prog Archives has definitely been the window into the prog world that has allowed me to get back into music and discover great music I would otherwise have been ignorant of, and for that, I can only be very gratefull !!

Great post. I agree fully. Discovery (or "re-discovery") can only lead you down the path the greater and greater things. Musically, it never ends for me. I read somewhere on PA that The Mars Volta are really into the music of Feli Kuti. Now I LOVE Fela Kuti too!

Peter Rideout wrote:

-- Ivan

Note the operative word "if" in my post, Ivan. (perhaps I should have underlined the word, or used this fellow:

)

I can imagine a cult leader saying "well, those non-believers just don't understand our enlighted movement."

No offense, please, but I think you're on some shaky philosophical ground here. (Though I do get the "thrust" of your point, and am enjoying this debate.

)

I think it is important to review an item if you feel the motivation to do so, even though you may not be a 'expert' on that genre of music. I'd like to hear a warning if something is just plain bad. For example if I like Rush, Tool and Anekdoten...maybe I might be interested in John Petrucci's solo album. But if a fellow Rush, Tool, Anekdoten fan finds it a poor album, I tend to trust that review more than a hard core Dream Theatre fan who pumps the album up and finds no fault in it at all.

BTW - I really enjoy DT and John Petrucci's solo album

Edited by necromancing777 - July 14 2006 at 14:40

"Your progressive hypocrites hand out their trash,
But it was mine in the first place, so I'll burn it to ash."

Guillermo

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Joined: November 28 2004
Location: Mexico
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Points: 814

Posted: July 14 2006 at 23:17

In Progarchives I have read very good reviews. I also have found information. I also learned about albums and bands from which I never knew before,and new releases or videos not available in the market now.

I also write reviews about bands and/or albums which I don`t like. for example, I bought PFM`s "Performance" album. I was very disappointed, more because it was an expensive buy. The CD remains in my collection, but I play it rarely.

I also read the "News" section of the Forum (in the main page). It is good to have this section, because I read the news about some deaths of very good musicians like Rick van der Linden, Cor Dekker, Jim Capaldi , Syd Barrett, etc., or about new albums by bands, etc.

Edited by Guillermo - July 14 2006 at 23:20