Sgt Pepper And Abbey Road on the top 100

bhikkhu wrote: Borealis wrote: ^ I believe Captain Beefheart and The Velvet Underground were the one who proved rock to have artistic value.   If you want my opinion, Beatles mainly showed to rest of the world the financial potential of music... Yeah, because beautiful, intelligent, challenging music, the likes of which had never been heard before, has always been a guaranteed payday. Who do you think opened the door for Beefheart and the Underground anyway?

hahhaha... damn right.... 

I agree with whoever it was who said proto-prog and prog-related should not be included in the Top 100. We are in a position where (however unlikely) The Beatles' debut album could be the number one prog album!

Now this thread has been moved out of the prog section, enough said, kick the Beatles out of the Prog Top 100 list, yeah, now that we are at it, out of the Top 500 too.

Mogens

dralan wrote: chopper wrote: I agree with whoever it was who said proto-prog and prog-related should not be included in the Top 100. We are in a position where (however unlikely) The Beatles' debut album could be the number one prog album! I got an idea. Why dont we say 'Revolver' and everything they did after that can legitamately be called "prog-related",and that proto-prog and prog-related should be allowed in the top 100. AND if you dont have anything positive to say about the Beatles then you are banned from the website

Ooops, hahaha, I'm on the ban list then... hmmm... fast... let's see... The Beatles have a good name, I like bugs.

Mogens

It really is a problem, that proto-prog/prog-related bands aren't banned from the Top 100/500. Although I'm a fan of Deep Purple it makes me shiver to imagine "In Rock" entering the Top 100 or even one of the best (if not the best) live-albums of all times, "Made in Japan".

MuzikLuva wrote: mgallard wrote: Actually I find it surprising (silly) that The Beatles are in a prog site, but I guess there are a lot of groups that are complicated to classify, a group that really was prog at that time was Procol Harum, but Beatles, ha! then let's put anyone in the PA's . Beatles as prog is an obvious error. It appears you aren't really familiar with their work!  Listen to Magical Mystery Tour, Sgt. Pepper, Revolver and Abbey Road and you will see where Prog got its roots.  If they hadn't experimented the way they did or if they didn't push the envelope, chances are sites like this wouldn't exist today as there might no be Progressive music.  Look how many of the Progressive artists credit The Beatles for influencing them.  How many Progressive artists have covered their material?

One thing I find irritating is Beatle fans attributing Beatles the creation of everything from toothpaste to evey single form of modern rock style...  I dissent, I think Prog came from other bands of the time maybe influenced a bit by the idea of experimenting, I admit a bit of ignorance in the depth and scope of the music of that time, but I think that of the records of the time Procol Harum's 1967 self-titled debut and the following 1968 "Shine of Brightly", they'd use Classical influences in their melodies, "In Held Twas in I" is 18 minutes long (!), parts sound as proto-70's Genesis... and so on. I'd vote for them as the creators of prog, together with The Moody Blues and if anything The Beatles were imitations of them in that sense. But that last part is just a supposition waiting to be blasted (of course) by the Beatle extremist-fans , but I'd appreciate any insights and facts to disprove it (have the complete Beatles collection, so reference songs previous to 1967 if you are to prove anything.

Greetings

Mogens

mgallard wrote: MuzikLuva wrote: mgallard wrote: Actually I find it surprising (silly) that The Beatles are in a prog site, but I guess there are a lot of groups that are complicated to classify, a group that really was prog at that time was Procol Harum, but Beatles, ha! then let's put anyone in the PA's . Beatles as prog is an obvious error. It appears you aren't really familiar with their work!  Listen to Magical Mystery Tour, Sgt. Pepper, Revolver and Abbey Road and you will see where Prog got its roots.  If they hadn't experimented the way they did or if they didn't push the envelope, chances are sites like this wouldn't exist today as there might no be Progressive music.  Look how many of the Progressive artists credit The Beatles for influencing them.  How many Progressive artists have covered their material? One thing I find irritating is Beatle fans attributing Beatles the creation of everything from toothpaste to evey single form of modern rock style...  I dissent, I think Prog came from other bands of the time maybe influenced a bit by the idea of experimenting, I admit a bit of ignorance in the depth and scope of the music of that time, but I think that of the records of the time Procol Harum's 1967 self-titled debut and the following 1968 "Shine of Brightly", they'd use Classical influences in their melodies, "In Held Twas in I" is 18 minutes long (!), parts sound as proto-70's Genesis... and so on. I'd vote for them as the creators of prog, together with The Moody Blues and if anything The Beatles were imitations of them in that sense. But that last part is just a supposition waiting to be blasted (of course) by the Beatle extremist-fans , but I'd appreciate any insights and facts to disprove it (have the complete Beatles collection, so reference songs previous to 1967 if you are to prove anything.GreetingsMogens

I don't think you necessarily have to be a Beatles fan to appreciate how vast their influence is. But, you need proof.

"Rubber Soul" 1965. On "Norwegian Wood" they began to use diffrent instrumentation and played with time signatures. The harmonies throughout the album were different than what had been done, and almost dissonant at times. The whole approach to the project was progressive, compared to what had been done up to this point. Many artists point to this album as an influence. Brian Wilson sites it as an inspiration for "Pet Sounds."

"Revolver" 1966. "Elanor Rigby" is practically a chamber music piece with vocals. "I'm Only Sleeping" with alternate tunings, time signature, and backward tapes. "Love You Too" incorporates Indian Music with rock. "Tomorrow Never Knows" could possibly be the first true prog song.

I hope that helps. I know we Beatle freaks can be pretty rabid, but you can't be blind to the scope of their importance. Look at the sheer volume of writings on them. Why do you think people want to spend so much time studying this? They are not just one of the most important groups in rock (perhaps the most important), they are one of the most important groups in the history of music itself.
    

bhikkhu wrote: mgallard wrote: One thing I find irritating is Beatle fans attributing Beatles the creation of everything from toothpaste to evey single form of modern rock style...  I dissent, I think Prog came from other bands of the time maybe influenced a bit by the idea of experimenting, I admit a bit of ignorance in the depth and scope of the music of that time, but I think that of the records of the time Procol Harum's 1967 self-titled debut and the following 1968 "Shine of Brightly", they'd use Classical influences in their melodies, "In Held Twas in I" is 18 minutes long (!), parts sound as proto-70's Genesis... and so on. I'd vote for them as the creators of prog, together with The Moody Blues and if anything The Beatles were imitations of them in that sense. But that last part is just a supposition waiting to be blasted (of course) by the Beatle extremist-fans , but I'd appreciate any insights and facts to disprove it (have the complete Beatles collection, so reference songs previous to 1967 if you are to prove anything.GreetingsMogens I don't think you necessarily have to be a Beatles fan to appreciate how vast their influence is. But, you need proof. "Rubber Soul" 1965. On "Norwegian Wood" they began to use diffrent instrumentation and played with time signatures. The harmonies throughout the album were different than what had been done, and almost dissonant at times. The whole approach to the project was progressive, compared to what had been done up to this point. Many artists point to this album as an influence. Brian Wilson sites it as an inspiration for "Pet Sounds." "Revolver" 1966. "Elanor Rigby" is practically a chamber music piece with vocals. "I'm Only Sleeping" with alternate tunings, time signature, and backward tapes. "Love You Too" incorporates Indian Music with rock. "Tomorrow Never Knows" could possibly be the first true prog song. I hope that helps. I know we Beatle freaks can be pretty rabid, but you can't be blind to the scope of their importance. Look at the sheer volume of writings on them. Why do you think people want to spend so much time studying this? They are not just one of the most important groups in rock (perhaps the most important), they are one of the most important groups in the history of music itself.

Importance of The Beatles? There is no discussion there, but what I find irritating is trying to eliminate any post-Beatles creativity, the typical comment from the B-fans, "Ah, the Beatles did that first".

Thanks for the examples, I've listened to them and there's no argument, they were quite experimental, but all the examples up until "Tomorrow Never Knows" are just that, experimental rock, fixed beat, standard song structure, I think it's quite a stretch to call them prog in the sense we currently "understand" Prog rock. Now TNK is a bit closer, but still I think it's not prog (has a fixed beat for example, there are very interesting elements there, in general they were very innovative I like it), I can clearly hear ELO and Michael Penn and so many others in each song, the influence is clear, but where does Procol Harum's "In held Twas I" come from? Yes, there are sitars, everyone at the time was all into Indian stuff, thanks, I guess, to the drugs and/or The Beatles, but the complex interlaced structure, 18 minutes long (that can be attributed to Sgt. Peppers, I think), the strong classical & blues influence, surely not all had been done by The B's before Harum, or what do you think?

I just find that the leap in the real prog direction is too large to attribute it to The Beatles, if anything there must be someone in between that is the real originator of prog. Who was that? Other than Procol Harum I mean.

Regards

Mogens

There you go! The Nice, those are really seminal. I'll check out the Proto Prog section and learn a bit (I need to). I still don't think The Beatles really did much for the Prog rock genre, based on the examples provided. And when are they getting kicked out of the top 500 Prog albums? 

Greetings

Mogens

Probably my two favorite Beatles albums and not coincidentally because they are their two "proggiest." The white album is great too but I don't hear much prog influence in it as it's good for what it is but it's more of an eclectic rock album. Pepper and Abbey are much more adventurous(for the most part)and thus more interesting to me. If I had to choose mayb Abbey but it's a tough choice since both are really great.