Genesis – Jumping the shark

Without a doubt Abacab.  Duke is quite good, minus a few bad songs.  Once Phil Collins' Face Value Album went to #1, the band changed direction, simple as that.

danbo wrote: Anyway.... It's much more important than that to me. Even non-Prog music. There is a requirement beyond being a casual listener, a depth. There is a sense of loss when a musical hero turns out a sub-par effort or a blatantly commercial release. We have a sense of ownership, through support and promotion. When they simple change course it creates an alienation with those who understood that "deeper meaning."

I strongly agree, however if the "blatantly commercial release" is of high quality (eg., Supertramps' "Crime of the Century", Yes's "90125", Peter Gabriel's "So", Styx's "Grand Illusion", Rush's "Moving Pictures" (3 AOR releases)) then for me there is no sense of loss, but one of rediscovery.

IMHO. 

charliefreak wrote: For me, they lost it completely after We Can't Dance. That was the album that turned me right off them. I could handle tracks on Invisible Touch, Genesis, but that was it. Saying that, so what? They'd evolved into something completely different from what they'd been, but it was their right to do what they wanted. They gained a whole new audience and sold an awful lot of records. Sure, I prefer the old stuff, but I don't see the change of style as being some terrible act of treachery. Hell, it's only music. I don't think Genesis or indeed many of the so-called prog bands discussed here feel quite as passionately about these issues of what is prog and what is not prog as many of their fans do. Their interest lies in making the music they want to make at any given time and hoping it appeals to enough people.

After reading this post, I've been trying to figure out why that phrase "only music" irritates me so much. The first thought that came to me was that "only music" pretty well characterizes the 'disposable product' view of music that the consumer-driven industry thrives upon. It's my impression (and I'll be the first to admit I'm not completely in touch with reality) that people who like prog generally regard their favorite bands or albums or songs as something special and meaningful- that they posess a quality that elevates the music above "only music" status. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe a lot of you out there prefer progressive rock over other genres the same way you prefer italian food over chinese food, or boxers over briefs.

I don't think anyone really cares if Genesis (or any other of 'our' bands) think of themselves as prog or not. I'm pretty sure most of the people who post to this site are aware that the discussions about categorizing and labeling bands and genres are just a bit of fun and a little intellectual exercise. Nor are most of us going to say that a band is better or worse because it is or isn't clearly "progressive rock". If Genesis had changed their name after (for instance) Howe left, this entire discussion would be moot as the resulting band would have been at best a secondary entry on this site, if it qualified for inclusion at all.

It depends on what you think "evolving" really entails...only the band themselves really know if they changed due to personal or musical growth, or wanted to attract new listeners, or wanted to make more money, or just got lazy. The whole 'jump the shark' concept is for fans to determine when something started getting worse instead of better. Or, for instance, when it stopped being an attempt to do something unique and meaningful and started being "only music".

"No progressive  band had such a dramatic change, and most of them returned to prog after two or three poppy adventures."

My friend Iván is right. GENESIS chose the the road of pop never to turn back to their grandiouse roots again. ELP did return to prog in 'Black Moon' (though not being as grea tas theur classics, you can tell that they were going back to their roots). After an unabashed AOR phase, KANSAS returned to prog from 1995 onwards. Si did YES now and then with the 2 Keys to Ascension, and Magnification. Even earlier, JETHRO TULL managed to create such good albums as Crest of a Knave and Rock Island after 2 semi-op albums and a flagrant pop album. And what about CAMEL? Again, being admittedly inferior in quality than their great 70s efforts, Andy Latimer's and co.'s four last studio albums are clearly defined under prog patterns.

Far from English speaking lands, LE ORME have been doing some damn good back-to-prog-roots albums during the last 10 years, and we have witnessed the gloriuos comebacks of METAMORFOSI, BALLETTO DI BRONZO, CAMPO DI MARTE.

It is possible to keep on going on the road of musical creativity and evolve without detaching oneself from their own roots. ELP, YES, KANSAS and others knew that - how come GENESIS didn't? In fact, I see no evolution between Abacab and We Can't Dance, except that they gave up on horn arrangements pretty soon.

On teh other hand, I want to reiterate that I find ATTWT pretty enjoyable, though a bit irregular; Duke seems to me a bit less enojoyable, though not that irregular.

Regards.

Genesis had to change musically.It was inevitable.Be grateful they recorded some great masterpeices like 'Suppers Ready'.ATTWT is a perfectly 'sevicable' album even if it isn't as 'progressive' as the others.Sometimes I like to listen to music that isn't so 'progressive' even if it is made by a progressive rock band.But if people want to hate it then that is their perogative I suppose.Seems a terrible waste of energy though!

Eberybody has too change, but I wouldn't like to be you if ELP recorded something like Illegal Alien or Who Dunnit?

When you love the music of a band so much, you can't accept they waste their talents doing crappy music, there's a differnce between changing and selling out, I believe Genesis sold out.

No progressive  band had such a dramatic change, and most of them returned to prog after two or three poppy adventures.

Iván

PS: Temporarily Rael, I have another twin brother in Wisconsin who uses Rael62 as his nick, so maybe we are triplets.

I thought hey jumped the shark with "Calling All Stations", then I gave that record a close listen, and fell in love with it (specially the title track and the mamooth "The Dividing Line" which, among friends, has become and anthem and an excuse for homoseually abusing each other).

Thus, for me, they never jumped the shark. They did what they have to do to last over long distance without tediously repeating themselves. The fact that my favourite Genesis songs are "Mama","One for the Vien", "Dreaming While You Sleep", "The Brazilian", "The Dividing Line" and "Dodo" acknowledges my lousy opinion. (I love "Whodunnit" as well. Ahhh, that "pep" Tony sound...)