Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General Polls
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - best form of govt
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic Closedbest form of govt

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Poll Question: which form do you support and why?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
19 [32.76%]
6 [10.34%]
11 [18.97%]
6 [10.34%]
1 [1.72%]
2 [3.45%]
2 [3.45%]
1 [1.72%]
3 [5.17%]
7 [12.07%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

Author
Message
AtLossForWords View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 23:42
Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

The situation in the U.S. is not that much different from the situation that our hair-challenged sisters (Wink) note in Germany: it does not matter who one votes for, since all of the major party candidates (and even some of the others) are pretty much alike.  And although part of the problem is indeed "human nature" - power/greed (along with money/oil in many cases) - the other part of the problem is that the transnational corporations now "own" almost every major party politician in almost every First World nation.
 
True, there are some differences in world leaders and their countries' forms of government, but these are largely superficial.  Ultimately, all countries and leaders have virtually no choice but to "bow down" before the transnational banks, and the oil, agribusiness, telecomm, pharmaceutical, insurance and other major industries.  This is what comes not simply of globalization and rapid technological advances (the Internet high on the list, but also telecomm, scientific/medical, etc.) but of the continued - and rapidly increasing - agglomeration of those industries.  Where synergistic mergers used to be intra-national, they are now international, with banks and various corporate industry leaders buying their competitors in other countries.  This puts the world's resources - money, food, natural resources, etc. - into the hands of a very few people, few if any of whom have consciences or even morals.
 
The result of this is extremely dangerous, because it creates transnational entities that can (and do) fall outside the legal and regulatory jurisdiction of a particular country or countries.  And because they are virtually a law unto themselves, their "control" over countries and their leaders is all the more troubling.
 
So whether it is capitalist democracy in the U.S., socialist monarchy in the UK, proto-capitalist communism in China, straight socialism somewhere else, etc., all of these countries and their socio-political systems rely on money (banks), oil, natural resources, etc.  So all of their leaders - no matter how strongly they espouse their particular form of government - are ultimately dancing to the same tune.
 
Sadly, the situation is getting worse, not better, and the prognosis for any reversal of this juggernaut is slim to none.
 
Peace.

To quote you Maani, "bravo". Clap

No matter what form of government a country has, it ultimately has to mix togethor with the rest of the world.  Could we continue this by saying the best form of government is a unified world government?

"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
Back to Top
MustShaveBeard View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 20 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 366
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 17:05
It'd be nice to have a perfect government but you're all forgetting one very important thing- corruption makes the world more interesting!Wink
Your life or your lupins!!!
Back to Top
NetsNJFan View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: April 12 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3047
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 13:34
I think American representative democracy is pretty good, its lasted us this long.  Other than civil war there have been no crises of government, and we have had regurlarly scheduled elections every two years for about 230 years.  That stands for something.  The constitution is a brilliant document. 
Back to Top
maani View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Founding Moderator

Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 17:36
NNJF:
 
 
"It has lasted us this long."  A whole 250 years?  Consider that we are among the youngest (if not the youngest) countries on the planet.  Which means that the governments of all the still-extent countries founded before us have forms of government that have lasted them far longer.
 
"Other than civil war there have been no crises of government."  Ever heard of a little thing called Watergate?  A president was forced to resign when it was clear that he would be indicted for "high crimes and misdemeanors."  And Iran/Contragate also threatened to reach into the highest levels of government, though Reagan was able to dodge it when others (Poindexter, North et al) essentially agreed to take the fall.
 
"And we have had regularly scheduled elections every two years for about 230 years."  Yes, but the accuracy and reliability of those elections have become increasingly questionable, especially in recent years.  Our current president had to be "appointed" by the Supreme Court after the Florida debacle of 2000.  And there is strong reason to believe that the 2004 election was also unreliable due to certain problems and irregularities in Ohio.
 
"The constitution is a brilliant document."  True, for the most part.  But keep in mind that is based at least partially on a much older document (the Magna Carta), and that the very "elasticity" that its founders built into it has become a flaw and, in some cases, a liability.
 
Peace.
Back to Top
crimson thing View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: April 28 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 848
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 17:41
250 years ain't that long.........my house is older than that.....LOL.......and, sadly, it looks it.......Cry......(I have a copy of the mortgage agreement for it dated a few days before the Declaration of Independence)
"Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS
Back to Top
maani View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Founding Moderator

Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 18:36
CT:
 
I assume you are serious about the age of your house.  My friends own the oldest house in NJ, and one of the oldest known original (i.e., unrenovated, unrestored) houses in the U.S.  It dates from about 1760 - also prior to the DOI.
 
Peace.
Back to Top
crimson thing View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: April 28 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 848
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 19:03

maani - yes, totally serious. Yet, there are much older houses in the area.....I can see one (a farmhouse & formerly a mill) from here......do bear in mind, however, that old houses aren't necessarily chocolate-box pretty.........and ours certainly ain't!....

 

I've seen some old places in NJ - near Princeton, I think, although it was a while ago.
"Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS
Back to Top
ClemofNazareth View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Prog Folk Researcher

Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4659
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 20:12
Originally posted by maani maani wrote:


 

"It has lasted us this long."  A whole 250 years?  Consider that we are among the youngest (if not the youngest) countries on the planet.  Which means that the governments of all the still-extent countries founded before us have forms of government that have lasted them far longer.

 

Peace.


maani,

I don't mind the USA bashing, heck I do it myself quite regularly. But in the interest of accuracy, I looked up the list of which countries have the oldest constitutions. Since a constitution is by definition a charter for a government, this should provide a common timeline for which current governments are actually the oldest. These are the only ones I could find with constitutions more than 100 years old:

Congo, Dem (1906)
Australia (1900)
Tonga (1875)
Switzerland (1874)
Luxembourg (1868)
Canada (1867)
Argentina (1853)
Denmark (1849)
Pitcairn Is (1838)
Belgium (1831)
Netherlands (1815)
Norway (1814)
USA (1787)
San Marino (1600)

Sure, there are places where people have lived longer than they have here, but these are the longest continuous governments (excluding monarch, anarchist, feudal, and dictatorial states).

"Peace is the only battle worth waging."

Albert Camus
Back to Top
maani View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Founding Moderator

Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 20:58
Clem:
 
You missed my point.  NNJF's statement was "I think American representative democracy is pretty good, its lasted us this long."  I pointed out that our country is only 250 years old, and that many other countries have existed successfully under other forms of government.  Although NNJF mentions the Constitution at the end of his post, his original statement was not about "forms of government with constitutions."  It was an response to the original topic of the thread: "Best Form of Government."
 
Thus, since neither NNJF's statement nor my response specified "forms of government with constitutions," you cannot simply exclude every non-constitutional form of government.  Thus, my statement remains correct.
 
Peace.
Back to Top
ClemofNazareth View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Prog Folk Researcher

Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4659
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 21:12
Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

Clem:
 

You missed my point.  NNJF's statement was "I think American representative democracy is pretty good, its lasted us this long."  I pointed out that our country is only 250 years old, and that many other countries have existed successfully under other forms of government.  Although NNJF mentions the Constitution at the end of his post, his original statement was not about "forms of government with constitutions."  It was an response to the original topic of the thread: "Best Form of Government."

 

Thus, since neither NNJF's statement nor my response specified "forms of government with constitutions," you cannot simply exclude every non-constitutional form of government.  Thus, my statement remains correct.

 

Peace.


Perhaps I missed your point. The only countries I'm aware of without some form of constitution are Bhutan and Somalia. Are you suggesting they have successful forms of government? Or are you referring to countries and/or forms of government that no longer exist today?
"Peace is the only battle worth waging."

Albert Camus
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7851
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 21:33
Aristocrasies.
But it's utopia, where will we find so many "real" aristocrats?
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
Minimalist777 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 19 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 293
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 22:21

What about Fascism? I cant say I like in from what ive read about the ideologies but Its really only gotton two times in power and Mussolini started out good before turning sour and Franco was a pretty food ruler from what I have heard about them both.

WWOSD?
What Would OliverStoned Do?
Back to Top
maani View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Founding Moderator

Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 00:52
Clem:
 
If I didn't know you better, I'd say you are being deliberately obtuse!  LOL.
 
England, France, Spain and most other European countries have been around for well over 1,000 years.  All of them have existed without "constitutionally-derived" governments for all that time.  And dozens of other countries (in Asia, South America and Africa, among others) have also existed for far longer than the U.S. under their various forms of government - some of which, admittedly, may not be the best ones, but that is the point you seem to be missing: they may not be the "best' forms of government, but they have existed longer than "American representational democracy."  And that was the point I was making.
 
Peace.
Back to Top
crimson thing View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: April 28 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 848
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 03:06

We don't have an explicitly written constitution - which is why Blair has managed to ride roughshod over parliament - but people often talk about an implicit one, composed of many years of case law & parliamentary precedents.

Incidentally, although we (the UK) are considered to be a (parliamentary) democracy, there are so many historical quirks and anomalies in the system that, unless you've grown up with it, it appears to be a ridiculously unwieldy & anachronistic arrangement. I suppose it is, and in an ideal world, we'd start again & design an all-inclusive 21st century model, which would address all the oddities. I have to say, from the outside, there are just as many anomalies in the US system, and could see how that too could benefit from a 21st century makeover.
"Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS
Back to Top
BaldFriede View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 06:29
Originally posted by Minimalist777 Minimalist777 wrote:

What about Fascism? I cant say I like in from what ive read about the ideologies but Its really only gotton two times in power and Mussolini started out good before turning sour and Franco was a pretty food ruler from what I have heard about them both.


Ideologically fascism isn't far away from national socialism, which is why Spain and Italy were allies of Germany in WW II. National Socialism itself is often referred to as "fascism".


Edited by BaldFriede - June 23 2006 at 06:42


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
Back to Top
Philéas View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 07:05
I don't think "republic" should be in the poll, as a republic could be anything from a democracy to a communist state to a tyranny. I voted for democracy, of course. Because it's the fairest way to rule a country; letting the people have a say. Communism and anarchism would never work in reality, and the others are either unfair or too old-fashioned.


Edited by Philéas - June 23 2006 at 07:08
Back to Top
Figglesnout View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: November 26 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1455
Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 01:37
yes thsi poll sucks i now realize after me learning MUCH about govt. perhaps i'll make another one day--qalthough this is a nice and very educational topic due to the intellectual posts here. =)
I'm a reasonable man, get off my case
Back to Top
el böthy View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 15:24
I cant see anarchysm going anywhere...it just cant work
"You want me to play what, Robert?"
Back to Top
Rust View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 14 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1148
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2006 at 16:39
We should all be Epicurists, and live according to his advice, without govt. and self sufficiently. Forgive me if this is totally evasive of the topic question.
 
 
Ying Yang
We got to pump the stuff to make us tough
from the heart
Its astart
What we need is awareness we cant get careless
Mental self defensive fitness
Make everybody see in order to fight the powers that be
Back to Top
pepo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: June 21 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 192
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2006 at 16:33
Sophocracy, I'm a supporter of Plato and Nietzsche all the rest is pure idealism. Anarchy or socialist utopia would work in future instances. Live long and prosper.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.