Overrated?

Ghandi 2 wrote: Certif1ed wrote: Those lyrics look perfectly good to me - what's actually wrong with them? From your comments, it looks like you simply don't understand them! The irony. I can think of far worse Prog Rock lyrics. What's wrong with them is that I find them whiny, annoying, and incredibly juvenile. If you can stand to listen to them without feeling an overwhelming urge to hurt Chester, then that's great. But I can't.

It's the content that offends you?

You can't just step back and see them as a good set of lyrics?

Ghandi 2 wrote: I also think that descending into angst and self-loathing is taking the easy way out (...)

I know what you mean - everybody should love themselves all the time

Ghandi 2 wrote: I do understand the lyrics; these are not exactly complicated songs with obscure allusions, metaphors, and hidden meanings.

Not obscure, no.

And nor are the lyrics to a great many Prog Songs - I still don't see the problem.

But it's still apparent you have difficulty understanding the lyrics:

Ghandi 2 wrote: Numb is about some kid who is tired of his/her parents (I add her because in the music video it's a girl) controlling what they want him/her to be. Everything this poor, poor child does is viewed as a mistake by his/her parents because his/her parents want him/her to do what they did. The song ends with the scathing indictment of Well you disappointed your parents too. (I paraphrase) Crawling is about the singer's insecurity and significant emotional/mental problems caused by an unspecified tramua, or perhaps a series of tramuas. I can't say any more because there's really nothing more to the song.

You REALLY don't like the subject matter - but does that make the lyrics intrinsically bad?

The subject matter is what a proportion of teenage kids think - and you're saying that they're wrong to have that kind of thought?

The whole genericness of the lyrics is the strength that gives them a wide appeal. You can read into them whatever you like, so they become personal.

The fact that you had such a violent reaction to them means that they worked on you - the purpose of art is to create a reaction.

If you were just bored and unmoved to comment, then it would have failed on you, and you could feel more justified that the lyrics are not very good.

As it is, the opposite appears to be the case - you even find the songs deeply memorable, proving that the music has something going for it.

If you don't like the lyrics, fine - that's your opinion.

But to try to argue that they are bad for a reason, but not be able to give a reason other than "I don't like the content" is fairly lame.

Ghandi 2 wrote: I can't believe I just wrote that. And now I have those damn songs stuck in my head again. I must go listen to some prog to cleanse my ears. And BTW, the stuff about "What wounds?" was a joke.

Ahahaha.

Ghandi 2 wrote: Yes, there are prog lyrics are worse, but something because something else is worse doesn't mean that LP's lyrics are good; it just means that there are other people out there who are even worse at writing lyrics than Chester is.

Good and bad are relative, and so far, you haven't managed to qualify any of this.

I can see nothing bad in their lyrics - I'm not saying they're poetry, but the point is that there are LOTS of people worse than Chester.

Ghandi 2 wrote: I will concede that I was perhaps a bit harsh; however, I did it because I wanted jj to see my point of view, which he did not seem to see and nobody else seemed to be willing to bother typing an explanation other than "Linkin Park sucks. They just do; I don't feel like explaining it."

...which is exactly what you've just said - but with more words.


    

Edited by Certif1ed - June 17 2006 at 17:31

MikeEnRegalia wrote: listening to albums like Frances the Mute I fear that people might begin to confuse complexity with creativity.

Why would you pick FtM? It's not particularly complex - dense, maybe. Sure, it moves away from some "comfortable" tonalities, but it's not particularly close to being as complex on a pure playing level as Jazz/Fusion or much Prog Metal. TMV move away from a lot of Rock Clichés in composition - but that's not too comlex to do for anyone interested in doing it.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: An artist can be hugely creative without using any time signature change in a song, and without leaving traditional pop chord progressions.

Right. Like Jon Bon Jovi? :P

Sersiously, creativity is about forging new paths; this has always been the case. That doesn't mean one can't forge a new path within an idiom or genre, but if what you're doing has essentially been done a thousand times before (or - in the case of most Rock music; a million times), it is by definition not creative.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Innovation is often involved, but you can also be creative within preset boundaries.

Which is exactly what I wrote - preset boundaries do not preclude innovation, but for something to be truly creative it does need to have a innovative component, otherwise it is just mimicry.

And for someone into Prog Metal to complain about any band doing complex stuff just to impress the listener is pretty much an own goal.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Teaflax wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: listening to albums like Frances the Mute I fear that people might begin to confuse complexity with creativity. Why would you pick FtM? It's not particularly complex - dense, maybe. Sure, it moves away from some "comfortable" tonalities, but it's not particularly close to being as complex on a pure playing level as Jazz/Fusion or much Prog Metal. TMV move away from a lot of Rock Clichés in composition - but that's not too comlex to do for anyone interested in doing it. Listening to FTM I'm always looking forward to the quiet, mellow parts ... the quirky parts are a bit over the top for my taste. The complexity is there if you bother to think about the lyrics, and some rhythms are strange (16ths) ... and I get the impression that they're doing it to impress the listener, not because it is called for by the concept. But of course this is all my personal opinion - I know that there are those who love the album for all these things and praise it as the new star on the prog horizon. Teaflax wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: An artist can be hugely creative without using any time signature change in a song, and without leaving traditional pop chord progressions. Right. Like Jon Bon Jovi? :P Sersiously, creativity is about forging new paths; this has always been the case. That doesn't mean one can't forge a new path within an idiom or genre, but if what you're doing has essentially been done a thousand times before (or - in the case of most Rock music; a million times), it is by definition not creative. I don't consider JBJ to be particularly creative - he writes good tunes, and the early BJ albums were simply masterpieces of American mainstream Rock - in particular Slippery When Wet and New Jersey. And I don't agree with your definition of creativity. Innovation is often involved, but you can also be creative within preset boundaries. I can be creative as a musician without inventing new scales or time signatures ... I don't need a scale named after me in order to be recognized as an artist.

Edited by necromancing777 - June 17 2006 at 18:06

^ have a look at this definition:

"One can define creativity as the mental phenomena, skills and/or tools capable of originating (and subsequently developing) innovation, inspiration or insight. Pop psychology generally may associate it with right or forehead brain activity or even specifically with lateral thinking."

Now ... as I said, innovation is a large part of it, but not everything. Applied to (prog) music I think you have to separate the content of the music from the stylistic elements used to transport the content. To use a more simple example: A painter doesn't need to invent new colors, new brushstroke techniques etc. in order to paint an interesting picture. The innovation can be in the content of the picture ... and in music that's also possible. A band like Opeth (to get back to the initial topic) can merely re-combine existing elements of music (Death Metal, Symphonic Prog etc) and use them to make an interesting album like Blackwater Park - and I can choose to call it creative music without them reinventing the wheel like The Mars Volta are trying to do.

And about your reply to my TMV statement: No response necessary - your reply is as devastating as it can get. Just not for me!

^ you're the one who is just replying to my posts saying "thank you for proving my point".

But I do agree - let's ignore each other! I want to talk about music anyway, and you don't seem to be in the mood for that - unless if it involves hurting people (referring to that Asia thread).


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 17 2006 at 18:16

jj1414 wrote: for your information, I have listened to lots of prog. some of it's ok, but most of it is weird and just not very good. Oh yeah, forgot most people who like prog also like Jazz and classical, you all seem to have the same taste. something that might surprise you is that I like classical too, so come off your little high! you're not as superior as you think you are.

I still have to wonder why someone who doesn't really like prog, is joining us here. No one is forcing you to like it. Why would you want to come here and spread all of this negativity? Were you dumped by a prog fan, or something?
    
    

Edited by bhikkhu - June 18 2006 at 00:17

Ghandi 2 wrote: jj1414 wrote: Ghandi 2 wrote: No, I'm giving the reasons why I don't like Linkin Park, unlike jj, who has only said that he thinks most of prog is too "weird." If you like them, whatever; I'm just saying why I don't like them. And all of their lyrics are like that. Can you name 2 songs of theirs which are not about some unspecified psychic wounds or his girlfriend dumping him/fighting with him? As for the mainstream comment: Prog-metal is not mainstream.   I think saying it's weird is about as good as you calling Linkin Park "uninspired". for your information, I have listened to lots of prog. some of it's ok, but most of it is weird and just not very good. Oh yeah, forgot most people who like prog also like Jazz and classical, you all seem to have the same taste. something that might surprise you is that I like classical too, so come off your little high! you're not as superior as you think you are. I don't think I'm superior. I think I don't like Linkin Park. And yes, we all have similar tastes; this is a forum for ONE GENRE OF MUSIC! It's a very diverse genre, but it's till only one genre. Would you surprised if everyone at a Punk board shared many tastes? The more you post, the more I think that you are a sneaky troll who is leading us on without being ridiculous enough to get yourself banned.  And I said a lot more than just "uninspired," if you would care to read my entire post.    It's fine if you think prog is not very good; I don't think Linkin Park or most things written since 1980 years is very good, especially anything which is mainstream.

Edited by jj1414 - June 18 2006 at 04:26

Know what? now I kind of feel bad I said those things, I didn't mean to offend anyone with my opinion, I'm not going to take back what i said but i won't say anything more about it, out of respect and in rememberance of someone i loved. I miss him but he was really stuck up, sorry i took it out on you guys.

Ghost Rider wrote: jj1414 wrote: Um whoa, I just realized that I'm debating with a lot of people who are like 20 years older than me! That's really weird! Kind of cool. I might also be the only female on here too! Confession, the guy I used to have a crush on was a prog fan, and he posted here. Shhhh! Sorry to disappoint you, but I am a female too, and probably even more than 20 years older than you (not that it's a problem to me ). The thing is, if I were to do the same to get back at all the guys who disappointed me, I would spend the whole day posting on forums instead of doing other things.