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Topic ClosedU.S. Moving Toward Totalitarianism?

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maani View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 12:10
A few items on the topic of this thread:
 
This is the way it started for the Jews in Europe:
 
 
Does the following even need comment?:
 
 
Does the following surprise anyone?:
 
 
Peace.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 12:36
 
"Because all Americans love guns. Ermm"


That's just as valid as saying all Brits have bad teeth. Or all Mexicans are lazy. Or a few things more offensive (and, of course, just true enough to be effective). LOL

On the other hand, I have the same aesthetic response to a beautifully engineered and exquistitely performing firearm as I do a guitar made by a master luthier. Not only that, some of my fondest childhood memories are of my father teaching me how to handle and respect guns. Neither of us are inbred rednecks, crazed militia compound members, or military fetishists. In fact, I'll toot my own horn just enough to say that I doubt many people posting here have put in the same amount of time, study, or thought on the nature and expression of freedom, and of violence.

So when I hear the common and almost offhand dismissal of guns and gun owners (usually with nothing more than kneejerk responses and recycled non-causal rationale), I can't help but imagine the type of teetotaling busybody spinsters who love nothing more than robbing people of joys and rights that they themselves have never bothered to attempt to understand.

So what exactly do you stand for- a free world, or simply a safer one?

Because totalitarianism would make things perfectly safe. Nobody ever has to die a violent death ever again- all you need to do is create a government which will take away all the things which could possibly cause harm. You don't even need violence to do it, either- you just need to keep filling people's heads with 'the right sort of propaganda' until they won't even notice that their freedom has been taken from them.


Edited by James Lee - June 02 2006 at 12:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 13:13
Originally posted by James Lee James Lee wrote:

 


So what exactly do you stand for- a free world, or simply a safer one?

Because totalitarianism would make things perfectly safe. Nobody ever has to die a violent death ever again- all you need to do is create a government which will take away all the things which could possibly cause harm. You don't even need violence to do it, either- you just need to keep filling people's heads with 'the right sort of propaganda' until they won't even notice that their freedom has been taken from them.
 
Why should anyone have to choose between a free world and a safer one.  The key to society is a good system of ethics.
 
Let's look at Immanuel Kant's objective ethical system of imperatives.  Kant believes that the only good thing that is good all by itself is a good will.  Many good traits, such as marksmanship, collectedness, or computer skills are all good things, but can be used for bad intentions.  The challenge for Kant is how to get society to act with a good will. 

Kant does this with his system of imperatives or "shoulds".  One categorical and one hypothetical.  Hypothetical imperatives are simple.  If you desire A do B sort of thing.  (e.g. If you want to earn money, have a job).  Categorical imperatives are somewhat more complex.  Categorical imperatives are derived from duty.  This is the key to morally praiseworthy actions.  If you save your friend from a fatality of being hit by a car is that a morally praise worthy action?  Kant says no, the action of saving your friend is something done from inclination.  Duty is something that should be done, but without inclination.  If you were to save a total stranger from a car fatality, Kant says that is a morally praiseworthy action.  Why, because it is something done from duty without inclination.  You have saved a fellow citizen's life.  It effects you in no reasonable way whether that citizen lived or died.  The categorical imperative is how citizens fulfill their roles.  What to do when two imperatives clash is difficult.  Kant says nothing of this and leaves it to his students to decide.
 
Kant also supports his imperatives with his thesis of "always treat humanity as an ends, not as a means."  Here is an example: A philosophy teacher does an excellent job of educating his students on the wonders of philosophy, but does just to earn money.  Every student walks into the class a dollar sign and out of the class a paycheck.  This is using humanity as a means to get money.  Kant belives this is wrong.  The philosophy teacher who teaches his students all the wonders of philosophy for the sake of fulfilling his duty is using humanity as a means.  His students aren't dollar signs, but rather a goal.  He then earns a paycheck as a result of his hardwork. 
 
You may think that there is no logical difference between the to.  This is not true.  Kant's philosophy is non-consequential.  It is based entirely on the will, the motive, and the duty.  It's safe to say that Kant believes people should act in the interest of society, not in the interest of themelves. 
 
Rousseau has another ethical system.  Rousseau has one golden rule of ethics, to allow the maximum amount of freedom for yourself, while causing the least amount of harm to others.  This is quite broad.  This could be taken to the extreme and mean that a heroine user is morally right and a factory owner is morally wrong, because the heroine user harms only himself.  The factory owner pollutes and harms the enviroment and the people in it.  Rousseau's rule is excellent, within reason. 
 
Rousseau also has a fondness for duty.  He believe citizens should work to support a surplus.  The surplus is the key to keeping society happy.  With a surplus, there is enough to spare for every, and while working to support a surplus work is always necessary and never useless.  Rousseu belives citizens at times, do need to put the good of society ahead of their own good, but isn't the good of society a citizen's own good too?
 
Combining Rousseau's liberty with Kant's duty results in a selfess, altruistic, free, and safe society. 
 
Carl Sagan has yet another point of view.  Sagan ethics are of the "tit for tat" rule.  This is rewarding loyalty with loyalty and betrayal with betrayal.  Sagan uses the example of two friends being detained by the police.  Either you or your friend could get a lesser penalty by one confessing and one refusing to incriminate himself, but both of you could get off by refusing to self incriminate.  Sagan belives people should reward loyalty with loyalty and betrayal with betrayal.  This is consequential, and different from Kant's non-consequential ethics.  Sagan's theory is for more of a man eat man society.  There is a maximum amount of freedom, but a minimal amount of safety if society dictates. 
 
So who can save us?  Plato can!  In Plato's republic the best society is the one which acts in philosophicial dikaiasune for which there is no English translation.  The general meaning of the word is justice, goodness, righteousness, and honor.  Plato defines justice as the fulfillment of function.  (back to Kantian imperatives)  Plato's function is much like Kant's imperatives.  That society should act in the spirit of duty.  For example take a piano.  A piano works best when used as a musical instrument.  You could try to make a piano into a table, but I doubt it would be very pleasant to rest a glass of water on the keys.  A piano plays music better than it does anything else, therefore it should play music.  The just way to act is not doing just what you do best, but never doing what harms.  A musician cannot make someone unmusical through music! This means that the just man never harms another man.  Everyone acts in the interest of society.
 
Plato has the trump card, but combining Platonic Dikaiasune, Kantian Imperatives, and Rousseaun Democracy, the perfect society can exist acting in the interest of society with the maximum amount of freedom and the fullest potential of skills.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 13:33
Thanks, ALFW. You just made me nostalgic for my first two years at college. Tongue

But you've misquoted me if you conclude that I was asking for a choice rather than a goal. As the topic is totalitarianism, and the current tangent is gun ownership, I'm asking if people would approve of a society that denies freedom but guarantees safety.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 13:47
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Well of course it's partly drug related, but cannot blaim everything on drugs.

I wasn't saying ban them, per se, but try and educate children better.  Would you agree that maybe Air Rifles and BB guns could be banned?  They have been used by teenagers to injure people and animals (whether deliberately or by accident).  Maybe some of these teenagers were on drugs, maybe some were sons or daughters of single parents... but that's just stereotyping (although there is a lot of truth in those statements of course).

I'd certainly be all for a regulation in some television, sure.  I feel television has gotten worse and if I had children, I'd limit them to what can view (and I also mean some childrens programs here too).

Don't go me wrong, I play violent video games and watch crime related films and I used to watch many 18 rated films when I was 15 or so and it never did me any harm.  But I do feel there should maybe be more suitable programs on television for children and teenagers.


Well, IMO, it's largely the responsibility of parents to educate their children in how and how not to behave. My dad bought me an airpistol for Christmas when I was about 14 or 15, however I have never and would never use it to hurt people or animals. If a parent suspects that their child isn't to be trusted with such an item then they shouldn't let them have one. It's not as if young teenagers can buy them themselves, there's an age restriction on buying them set at about 18 for BB guns and  21 (I think) for air pistols/rifles. At least there is in the UK.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 13:52
Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:

Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Well of course it's partly drug related, but cannot blaim everything on drugs.

I wasn't saying ban them, per se, but try and educate children better.  Would you agree that maybe Air Rifles and BB guns could be banned?  They have been used by teenagers to injure people and animals (whether deliberately or by accident).  Maybe some of these teenagers were on drugs, maybe some were sons or daughters of single parents... but that's just stereotyping (although there is a lot of truth in those statements of course).

I'd certainly be all for a regulation in some television, sure.  I feel television has gotten worse and if I had children, I'd limit them to what can view (and I also mean some childrens programs here too).

Don't go me wrong, I play violent video games and watch crime related films and I used to watch many 18 rated films when I was 15 or so and it never did me any harm.  But I do feel there should maybe be more suitable programs on television for children and teenagers.


Well, IMO, it's largely the responsibility of parents to educate their children in how and how not to behave. My dad bought me an airpistol for Christmas when I was about 14 or 15, however I have never and would never use it to hurt people or animals. If a parent suspects that their child isn't to be trusted with such an item then they shouldn't let them have one. It's not as if young teenagers can buy them themselves, there's an age restriction on buying them set at about 18 for BB guns and  21 (I think) for air pistols/rifles. At least there is in the UK.
 
I don't think age restrictions EVER help.  If anything age restrictions just perpetuate the obsession.  I don't think a kid that's five years old should be able to walk into a store and by a handle of vodka, let's be resonable here.  Either allow an item almost unconditionally with consequences of use, or ban it altogethor.  I think making guns, liqour, and drugs an open topic rather than a closed one is a good thing.  If a kid is downing vodka often, isn't better that he communicate it to his parents.  It's when something becomes taboo that it becomes a hidden problem.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 14:02
^ I agree with that.

And James, the whole idea of "perfectly safe" society sounds like an unattainable and undesirable goal to me.

Then again, I'm a Buddhist, and believe that pain and suffering exist as lessons.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 14:18
Oh I know it'll never be achieved.

But if a parent's child was responsible, yet he hung around with a boy/girl who was irresponsible, who borrowed/stole/coerced the gun from the responsible child, then that obviously isn't a good idea.  Obiously most people are sensible when it comes to having guns.  But I know someone bought in a BB gun to College once and being adolescents and easy coerced, most of us ended up firing at empty soda cans.  None of us (as far as I know), would have ever used it against people or animals, but if others can so easily get hold of such a thing, then it slightly worries me.

Sometimes it doesn't matter how sensible a person is, if they're weak-minded, or easily lead, then they will be manipulated into doing something.  Especially at school level.  Bullying occurred all the time at my school.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 14:22
Banning something because it can used thoughtlessly by a small minority  is silly. You might as well ban kitchen knives or glue.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 18:47
ALFW:
 
Not to gainsay Plato, Rouseau, Kant et al, let me simply offer a series of "imperatives" from the system of belief that I follow:
 
"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you."
 
"Greater love hath no man that this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
 
"Judge not, lest ye be judged in equal measure."
 
"He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."
 
"Take the log out of your own eye before you take the mote out of anothers'."
 
"In 'patience' possess ye your souls."
 
"...We glory in tribulation also, knowing that tribulation worketh patience." (Empathy, take note!  LOL)
 
"And above all things, put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness."
 
"Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely..."
 
"Be clothed with humility..."
 
And these are just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.  There are dozens of others.
 
And, of course, the one I follow preached a ministry of love, peace, forgiveness, compassion, humility, patience, charity, selflessness, service, justice and truth.
 
I think these are pretty darn good "imperatives," and words and ideas to live by and to make the world a better, less violent, more loving place.
 
Peace.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 20:48
I confess I haven't read every post here. But while I agree that there are liberties at risk these days, the NSA wiretapping certainly raises my eybrows and I'm not too keen on a few others like the marriage ammendment the feds want to impose, but people also seem to forget the liberties that have incurred over the last 50 years.

Maani, you're about the same age as I am, so I'm sure you remember the days when you were put in jail for flipping the bird in public, pubic hair didn't exist in Playboy, a toilet wasn't even mentioned on TV 'til All In The Family came to fold, there was no motion picture rating system to expand on artistic expression in films, protests have become more of the norm instead of being countered with fire hoses and on and on.

Seems that it goes both ways. To quote Jerry Seinfeld: "See how it all evens out?"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 21:06
MtS:
 
Yes, I do remember most of those, but not being jailed for flipping the bird in public.  At least not in NYC.  In fact, until the 1980s, you could smoke a joint on the street and as long as you did it with some sense of "decorum" (i.e., not flagrantly), no one bothered you.  In fact, the only time a cop would even say anything was if you were getting high near children - e.g., near a schoolground, or in a park where there were lots of kids.
 
I also remember that "peacable assembly" was easier and less likely to become violent, or to get any police response beyond making sure everyone was okay.  I did not see a single mounted policeman at any rally or protest until the 1980s, much less police in riot gear, or hurling tear gas.
 
In NYC at least, protesting and rallying has not only become harder to do (more "permits" are needed for more places, etc.),  but is also predestined - by the law enforcement community - to become "difficult" and possibly lead to problems.  New "penning" procedures, less access, less egress, etc. creates a situation in which the possibility of attendee irritation - to say nothing of simple confusion - can lead, and has led, to near-violent conflicts.  You need only read about the numerous civil rights and legal violations by the NYPD during the protests at the RNC to know just how "proto-totalitarian" the Big (wormy) Apple is becoming.
 
Peace.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 22:37
Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

MtS:
I also remember that "peacable assembly" was easier and less likely to become violent, or to get any police response beyond making sure everyone was okay.  I did not see a single mounted policeman at any rally or protest until the 1980s, much less police in riot gear, or hurling tear gas.

 

In NYC at least, protesting and rallying has not only become harder to do (more "permits" are needed for more places, etc.),  but is also predestined - by the law enforcement community - to become "difficult" and possibly lead to problems.  New "penning" procedures, less access, less egress, etc. creates a situation in which the possibility of attendee irritation - to say nothing of simple confusion - can lead, and has led, to near-violent conflicts.  You need only read about the numerous civil rights and legal violations by the NYPD during the protests at the RNC to know just how "proto-totalitarian" the Big (wormy) Apple is becoming.

 

Peace.

I don't know about NYC, but tell that to the people who went to Kent State just up the road from me about how easy peaceful assemblies were in the 60's.
    
    

Edited by marktheshark - June 02 2006 at 22:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2006 at 23:56
Originally posted by marktheshark marktheshark wrote:

Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

MtS:
I also remember that "peacable assembly" was easier and less likely to become violent, or to get any police response beyond making sure everyone was okay.  I did not see a single mounted policeman at any rally or protest until the 1980s, much less police in riot gear, or hurling tear gas.

 

In NYC at least, protesting and rallying has not only become harder to do (more "permits" are needed for more places, etc.),  but is also predestined - by the law enforcement community - to become "difficult" and possibly lead to problems.  New "penning" procedures, less access, less egress, etc. creates a situation in which the possibility of attendee irritation - to say nothing of simple confusion - can lead, and has led, to near-violent conflicts.  You need only read about the numerous civil rights and legal violations by the NYPD during the protests at the RNC to know just how "proto-totalitarian" the Big (wormy) Apple is becoming.

 

Peace.

I don't know about NYC, but tell that to the people who went to Kent State just up the road from me about how easy peaceful assemblies were in the 60's.
    
    
 
Didn't Herbert Marcuse have something to do with that?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2006 at 00:01
MtS:
 
Perhaps I should have qualified my comment a bit.  Clearly, during the anti-Vietnam demonstrations under Nixon, things got way out of hand, given Nixon's well-known dictatorial predelections.  I guess I was referring more to the post-Vietnam protests re such things as nuclear weapons, nuclear power, environment, and various civil rights issues.  It was not that these issues did not bring out equally powerful (if different) passions to the anti-war rallies.  It was simply that, under Ford, Carter, Clinton and even Reagan and Bush pere, there was not the same kind of anti-police or anti-protestor sentiment.
 
What Bush has done is bring back that sentiment - the fear, paranoia, secrecy and increased tension between protestors and law enforcement that has not been this evident since the Nixon years.
 
Peace.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2006 at 00:08
I would just like to add that I have been a college student for five years now, and have seen a number of protests, yet never have I seen any kind of trouble with the police as long as things were peaceful. In my experience, it is not difficult to protest peacefully at all. However, I should qualify that by saying that I am not the protesting type generally, so my experience is rather limited and I don't claim to be an authority on the subject. Just my two cents.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2006 at 10:33
Originally posted by man@arms man@arms wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:

Originally posted by crimson thing crimson thing wrote:

Weirdly, our police do warn you before shooting you, and no, unlike Americans, we don't have the right to shoot up a high school on a whim; thus we have no need of guns.
WTF are you talking about? I'm starting to worry about you, crimson. First you (deliberately?) grossly misinterpet what I'm trying to say, and now you're saying the US condones murder? :S The VAST majority of gun crimes are simple robberies; I don't know what you hear, but you make it sound like kids go on a shooting spree every week. Crime in the U.K. has increased dramatically since the gun ban. True, there are less gun crimes, but there are many more crimes because people can't defend themselves from criminals.
 
I'm not clear what you mean by warning, but if somebody is trying to escape (not resisting arrest, actually running away) then the police have the right to shoot to wound to stop him or her.


I think you took him a bit too literally there Ghandi 2. I for one am glad that guns are illegal here, they would only lead to an increase in deaths, I certanly wouldnt trust half the population of any country with a gun. Its also nearly impossible to make such a link between  the increase in crime and a gun ban (when the hell was that introduced, I dont think it was recent).
 
You know that the people saying that guns do not kill people , but people are killing people are bloody industry puppets. Complete and total BS!
 
Having a gun in your hand gives you a sense of power that is unreal, makes you act braver that if you did not have one. Guns make it easy to kill someone since you do not have to make contact with the person you want to kill. Killing someone from your own hands (by contact is incredibly difficult)
 
Let me give you a story of my teen years.
There was a real bully in school, that even most cops were afraid of let alone the school authorities. But he was under 18 and had been found parttaking in two murders >> a really vicious guy, that Canada only waits for him to get to majority to send these arsehloes in Northern territories to cut lumber or dig mines >> but as far away from society as possible >> not exactly prisonners in goulags , but you get the picture >> you have to steal a boat or a place to get away
 
For some stupid reasons (I was get friendly with a girl he had views on), this guy pulled a knife on me and stuck it to my face pressing enough to draw blood pouring down my collar. I smashed his foot with my heel and kicked him in the teeth as he was bending over to grab his foot , then hoofed him in the balls and he drpped. I grabbed his knife (he had drppoed it) and decided that this arsehole would ruin my life anyway, so I had to do him away >> I just could not do it, plungeing the knife into his body was simply an impossible act for me. HAD THIS BEEN A GUN instead of knife,  I am sure I would've pulled the trigger as I was scared enough for my life when he got back on his feet. It was clearly self-defence and I had enough witnesses. So I did not knife that arsehole but I did jump with both feet on his knee destroying it, but at least I was temporarily safe.
 
 
What I am trying to say is that widespread gun circulation in a country spreads violence and death . It only spreads more fear of violence and the vicious circle starts, since you will buy a gun to protect yourself and your family, then the kids will soon or later toy with the thing >> let's face it, no-one keeps a gun in a safe, because if you do need it it is inaccessible quickly enough to be effective.
 
GUNS KILL PEOPLE!!!
 
 Shocked Whoa dude that's scary!  But, you made your point and I couldn't agree more.  I live in the Kansas City area and we have one of the highest crime rates in the country.  Every night on the news you are almost guaranteed to hear about someone shooting someone else.  Last night we had another "thrill kill", where two young men shot and killed a poor guy riding home on his bicycle from work simply because "he was there and they were bored".     
 
 
 
 
 
 
Yeah, guns are like freakin' Strombringer that sit there humming for you to pick them up and kill people. It turns normally shy, demure and law abiding citizens into cold blooded Manson types by sending forth Satanic vibes for them to go out and kill people. Ignore prosecutring those who illegally obtain one, as it is the demonic gun makers churning out these possessed, vile metal horrors to inflict death and destruction.
 
Or better yet, even if the UN succeeds in their gun ban for all nations so the armies of petty dictators and terror groups can prey upon the free world at will, I'll be one of the ones keeping my weapons and protecting myself. Keep in mind that it was people who used guns to gain the freedoms that you all enjoy so much, whether you are American, Canadian or European. Guns and the right to defend yourself is not only vital, it is natural. Self preservation is a basic instinct. If you think man is above base desires and instincts, guess again. If you cannot kill someone when you have the opportunity to do so with a knife, chances are you would not do so with a gun. It is not the weapon but the person wielding it that makes the decision to kill. A gun cannot make you kill. A knife cannot make you kill. Only the person can make a final decision. Does it make a difference if a burglar or a murderer kills by shooting someone or by bludgeoning someone to death? The ban of guns will not only stop people from killing, it will not hinder the ones who will kill. Only upping the risks to the criminals will deter the person from doing so. A criminal rarely invades a place where he runs the greatest risk of personal injury or death. One way to up that ante in your favour is to be armed. Yes, death rates do go up when guns are made legal in a place where are first made legal-because the first thing that happens is criminals get shot trying to commit crimes in an area they first ran rampant. You have 911 operators deciding if people are a crank call before calling police or emergency personnel-do you really want to be home alone and unarmed and hear someone trying to break into your house, having to put your life alone in the hands of a 911 operator with something up their tookus?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2006 at 10:39
Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:

Banning something because it can used thoughtlessly by a small minority  is silly. You might as well ban kitchen knives or glue.
 
THANK YOU! By logic of the anti-gun people, we should ban alcohol and cars because someone might drive drunk, we should ban airplanes because someone might use them as guided missiles and we should ban fertilizer because someone might blow up an office building
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2006 at 10:52
Erm, why ban alcohol and cars?  Surely banning just alcohol would be sufficient?

Actually, you make a valid point there, maybe there should be a ban on alcohol...

I jest, or do I?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2006 at 13:07
Originally posted by darksinger darksinger wrote:

Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:

Banning something because it can used thoughtlessly by a small minority  is silly. You might as well ban kitchen knives or glue.
 
THANK YOU! By logic of the anti-gun people, we should ban alcohol and cars because someone might drive drunk, we should ban airplanes because someone might use them as guided missiles and we should ban fertilizer because someone might blow up an office building
And by your "logic" - the more people who have guns, the safer we all are........surprised they're not given away free at MacDonalds, actually..........
(Damned forum software - that last bit's by me, CT, not DS, in case you can't tell........)


Edited by crimson thing - June 03 2006 at 13:08
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