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darksinger 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1091
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 Posted: May 29 2006 at 14:32 |
 maani wrote:
Darksinger:
No, we are saying that if you are one of those who feels that the steady erosion of your freedoms, rights and civil liberties is "okay" with you because you think it provides you with some illusory sense of "security," you are fooling yourself, and you are willingly and happily allowing your government to take you down a proto-totalitarian road.
Peace. |
i will say nothing further-you will interpret whatever i say to suit what you want to believe.
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Chicapah
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8238
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Posted: May 29 2006 at 15:01 |
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I agree with darksinger in that nothing said in this forum will likely change your way of thinking. I'd just like to say that if you've never lived under the threat of the selective service draft that was in existence during the fifties and sixties in the USA then "invasion of privacy" isn't really relevant in the same sense. Think about it. Uncle Sam had the right to force you into the armed services. If you refused you would go to prison. WE HAD NO CIVIL LIBERTIES in those days. To quote Mr. Gump, "That's all I've got to say about that."
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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crimson thing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 28 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 848
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Posted: May 29 2006 at 15:04 |
darksinger wrote:
crimson thing wrote:
So that's one vote for the police state..........
Just a pity no-one's allowed to vote against....... |
so basically you are saying that if i would like to have my government stop some dingdong from blowing me up, i'm for a police state? |
I'm saying it's rather quaint & touching that you still believe the reasons given to you by the Cheneys, Rumsfelds, Bushes & Perles of this world, given the overwhelming evidence that they've lied to you on almost every aspect so far....
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darksinger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1091
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Posted: May 29 2006 at 16:15 |
crimson thing wrote:
darksinger wrote:
crimson thing wrote:
So that's one vote for the police state..........
Just a pity no-one's allowed to vote against....... |
so basically you are saying that if i would like to have my government stop some dingdong from blowing me up, i'm for a police state? |
I'm saying it's rather quaint & touching that you still believe the reasons given to you by the Cheneys, Rumsfelds, Bushes & Perles of this world, given the overwhelming evidence that they've lied to you on almost every aspect so far.... |
so would you say we are more or less totalitarian than where you're at? you have an opinion on how my government is-i want to hear one from you on yours
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525
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Posted: May 29 2006 at 17:59 |
re: call records. The issue is one of judicial process, a major theme in our constitution. The agencies involved did not feel they needed a warrant. Even in wartime, one must prove that the records are of immediate value in a specific action...otherwise, they are simply fishing. If you believe in any sort of individual freedom, that's obviously a Very Bad Thing (and if you don't, why would you be proud of the US, which stands for basic values of freedom and democracy?). On the other hand, only the most naive believe that telephone conversations are completely private. That's why anybody involved in anything that they want to keep secret take precautions- which make even a detailed examination of call records irrelevant. So this is either an embarrassment or an outrage- take your pick. 
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crimson thing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 28 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 848
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Posted: May 29 2006 at 19:04 |
darksinger wrote:
crimson thing wrote:
darksinger wrote:
crimson thing wrote:
So that's one vote for the police state..........
Just a pity no-one's allowed to vote against....... |
so basically you are saying that if i would like to have my government stop some dingdong from blowing me up, i'm for a police state? |
I'm saying it's rather quaint & touching that you still believe the reasons given to you by the Cheneys, Rumsfelds, Bushes & Perles of this world, given the overwhelming evidence that they've lied to you on almost every aspect so far.... |
so would you say we are more or less totalitarian than where you're at? you have an opinion on how my government is-i want to hear one from you on yours |
Well, unfortunately, Blair's just a guy who can't say no.....to Bush.......whether that's because he (Blair) is also a fundamentalist religious nutter, or because Bush has him by the short and curlies, or because Blair is corrupted by power, or because Blair is really just as stooopid as Bush & believes all that crap, or (an option seriously considered by some very upright & credible commentators here) Blair is clinically insane, I can't say. But I thoroughly disagree with the ubercapitalist system, which has made America hated throughout the world, and is being forced upon us here, whether we like it or not. It is a system designed to make the crooked rich richer, and to keep the poor working all hours just to keep the system running. And before the knee-jerk responses start, No! I'm not a communist - but there are undoubtedly many things worth having in this world that will not come about through a fundamentalist free market approach alone (peace, for one.....) But I think you're a little too young to realise that yet.
Will that do for a soundbite? 
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AtLossForWords
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 11 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6699
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Posted: May 29 2006 at 21:34 |
darksinger wrote:
and classification of information during a war or times of military action is essential. suspension of rights during such times is not out of the ordinary-look at world war 2! and we got our rights back afterwards. but you have to have secrets for various reasons, such as to stop widespread panic or to keep the enemy from knowing what you have or what you are doing. |
Just because something has happened before means it is right? I understand some information has to be classified, but classified information and suspension of rights are two completely different things. Should Japaneese Americans, legal citizens have had to sell their posessions for minimal value, so that it wouldn't have been vandalized to the point of no value during their inturnment? Should they have been inturned in the first place? Many German immigrants were living in the United States, why weren't they inturned? (I'm not inferring you said anything about Japaneese inturnment.)
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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darksinger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1091
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Posted: May 29 2006 at 23:25 |
crimson thing wrote:
darksinger wrote:
crimson thing wrote:
darksinger wrote:
crimson thing wrote:
So that's one vote for the police state..........
Just a pity no-one's allowed to vote against....... |
so basically you are saying that if i would like to have my government stop some dingdong from blowing me up, i'm for a police state? |
I'm saying it's rather quaint & touching that you still believe the reasons given to you by the Cheneys, Rumsfelds, Bushes & Perles of this world, given the overwhelming evidence that they've lied to you on almost every aspect so far.... |
so would you say we are more or less totalitarian than where you're at? you have an opinion on how my government is-i want to hear one from you on yours |
Well, unfortunately, Blair's just a guy who can't say no.....to Bush.......whether that's because he (Blair) is also a fundamentalist religious nutter, or because Bush has him by the short and curlies, or because Blair is corrupted by power, or because Blair is really just as stooopid as Bush & believes all that crap, or (an option seriously considered by some very upright & credible commentators here) Blair is clinically insane, I can't say. But I thoroughly disagree with the ubercapitalist system, which has made America hated throughout the world, and is being forced upon us here, whether we like it or not. It is a system designed to make the crooked rich richer, and to keep the poor working all hours just to keep the system running. And before the knee-jerk responses start, No! I'm not a communist - but there are undoubtedly many things worth having in this world that will not come about through a fundamentalist free market approach alone (peace, for one.....) But I think you're a little too young to realise that yet.
Will that do for a soundbite? |
actually, i meant your society. you call us totalitarian, yet you have cameras everywhere, you cannot own firearms, the police arrest you if they think you might injure a person breaking into your house, they can give "warnings" to violent criminals rather than arrest them, you cannot assemble freely....i'm sure there are some i'm missing. would you say these measures are totalitarian?
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darksinger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1091
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Posted: May 29 2006 at 23:34 |
AtLossForWords wrote:
darksinger wrote:
and classification of information during a war or times of military action is essential. suspension of rights during such times is not out of the ordinary-look at world war 2! and we got our rights back afterwards. but you have to have secrets for various reasons, such as to stop widespread panic or to keep the enemy from knowing what you have or what you are doing. |
Just because something has happened before means it is right? I understand some information has to be classified, but classified information and suspension of rights are two completely different things. Should Japaneese Americans, legal citizens have had to sell their posessions for minimal value, so that it wouldn't have been vandalized to the point of no value during their inturnment? Should they have been inturned in the first place? Many German immigrants were living in the United States, why weren't they inturned? (I'm not inferring you said anything about Japaneese inturnment.)
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during a war, people do things in interest of security. the interment of the japanese and other asians is because you could spot them. germans as a whole are all over europe. their bloodlines are all over. could you tell the difference between a norwegian and a german? or a welshman and a german? but you can tell between a norwegian, welshman or any other european or european descendant and a japanese person. was their interment the correct thing to do? i dunno. i was not in america-or the planet-during world war 2 so i cannot tell. am i all freaky that it happened? not really because i had nothing to do with it. i cannot go back and change it. what i do know is that in times of crisis-war or disaster-the normal rules of society go out the window until such a time the crisis has passed, then they are returned.
Edited by darksinger - May 29 2006 at 23:35
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator
Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 00:39 |
darksinger:
You may not have been around then, but perhaps a hypothetical situation would give you some idea.
Did you see the movie "The Siege?" As you know, it was about escalating Arab terrorismts in New York City. In the film, not only is Brooklyn (which has most of the city's Arab population) put under martial law, but any male of Arab descent in a certain age group is interred in fenced-in areas in a local stadium, in the same way that Japanese were interred during WWII.
Would you be in favor of such an action?
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crimson thing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 28 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 848
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 03:01 |
darksinger said :
"actually, i meant your society. you call us totalitarian, yet you have cameras everywhere, you cannot own firearms, the police arrest you if they think you might injure a person breaking into your house, they can give "warnings" to violent criminals rather than arrest them, you cannot assemble freely....i'm sure there are some i'm missing. would you say these measures are totalitarian?"
Weirdly, our police do warn you before shooting you, and no, unlike Americans, we don't have the right to shoot up a high school on a whim; thus we have no need of guns. Not sure why you think we can't "assemble freely"; but in general, you're right, we're sadly becoming more like the US each day....... 
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Ghandi 2
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 17 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1494
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 12:45 |
crimson thing wrote:
Weirdly, our police do warn you before shooting you, and no, unlike Americans, we don't have the right to shoot up a high school on a whim; thus we have no need of guns. |
WTF are you talking about? I'm starting to worry about you, crimson. First you (deliberately?) grossly misinterpet what I'm trying to say, and now you're saying the US condones murder? :S The VAST majority of gun crimes are simple robberies; I don't know what you hear, but you make it sound like kids go on a shooting spree every week. Crime in the U.K. has increased dramatically since the gun ban. True, there are less gun crimes, but there are many more crimes because people can't defend themselves from criminals.
I'm not clear what you mean by warning, but if somebody is trying to escape (not resisting arrest, actually running away) then the police have the right to shoot to wound to stop him or her.
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crimson thing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 28 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 848
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 13:44 |
I'M AFRAID THIS IS GONNA HAVE TO BE IN CAPITALS. GUNS DO NOT DEFEND YOU FROM CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IMAGINE THE SITUATION - A MUGGER CONFRONTS YOU WITH A KNIFE. HE WAITS PATIENTLY WHILST YOU DIG DEEP IN YOUR BAG OR POCKET, RELEASE THE SAFETY CATCH AND SHOOT HIM! YEAH, RIGHT............
FORTUNATELY WE HAVEN'T QUITE REACHED THE STAGE IN THIS COUNTRY, AS SEEMS TO APPLY IN THE STATES, WHERE YOUR 'RIGHT' TO SHOOT ME OUTWEIGHS MY RIGHT NOT TO BE SHOT.
Thank you for listening, but please don't bother me with garbage again.
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 13:57 |
Ghandi 2 wrote:
crimson thing wrote:
Weirdly, our police do warn you before shooting you, and no, unlike Americans, we don't have the right to shoot up a high school on a whim; thus we have no need of guns. |
WTF are you talking about? I'm starting to worry about you, crimson. First you (deliberately?) grossly misinterpet what I'm trying to say, and now you're saying the US condones murder? :S The VAST majority of gun crimes are simple robberies; I don't know what you hear, but you make it sound like kids go on a shooting spree every week. Crime in the U.K. has increased dramatically since the gun ban. True, there are less gun crimes, but there are many more crimes because people can't defend themselves from criminals.
I'm not clear what you mean by warning, but if somebody is trying to escape (not resisting arrest, actually running away) then the police have the right to shoot to wound to stop him or her. |
I think you took him a bit too literally there Ghandi 2. I for one am glad that guns are illegal here, they would only lead to an increase in deaths, I certanly wouldnt trust half the population of any country with a gun. Its also nearly impossible to make such a link between the increase in crime and a gun ban (when the hell was that introduced, I dont think it was recent).
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Empathy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1864
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 15:37 |
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What's happening in this country is absolutely terrifying.
And apparently no one will care until it's too late.
Darksinger... have you read the 9/11 commission? If the Patriot Act
were truly meant to be a remedy for everything that "went wrong" in
order to allow 9/11 to happen, wouldn't they have waited for the
results of the investigation first?
A majority of the hijackers on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia. Why, then,
was the bulk of the chapter from the 9/11 Commision's findings on Saudi Arabia's ties to the attack
redacted? (Blacked out). Is that in order to protect the American
people? Or just _certain_ American's financial interests?
How many of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi?
Why did we go to war with Iraq, again?
Oh, that's right, the "immanent threat" of Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Where were those?
It's a very hard reality to accept that your government doesn't have
your best interests at heart. It's far easier to keep your head buried
in the sand. But we cannot afford to do this anymore.
Edited by Empathy - May 30 2006 at 15:48
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Pure Brilliance:
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 15:54 |
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"I certanly wouldnt trust half the population of any country with a gun." - sleeper
Would you trust them with a car? Piloting an airplane? Educating your children?
"FORTUNATELY WE HAVEN'T QUITE REACHED THE STAGE IN THIS COUNTRY, AS
SEEMS TO APPLY IN THE STATES, WHERE YOUR 'RIGHT' TO SHOOT ME OUTWEIGHS
MY RIGHT NOT TO BE SHOT." - crimson thing
Are you serious? Have you read any of the UK newspapers lately? They read like Clockwork Orange without the fashion sense and taste in music. The US has no monopoly on brutal, mindless violence...guns or no guns. Nor are we any closer to totalitarianism than a country with vestigal retarded monarchy on one side and on th eother, self-deluded post-marxists who believe that individual rights must be sacrificed for some vague idea of a better society. Thank you for shouting.
Edited by James Lee - May 30 2006 at 16:06
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Empathy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1864
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Posted: May 30 2006 at 16:03 |
Chicapah wrote:
I agree with darksinger in that nothing said in this
forum will likely change your way of thinking. I'd just like to
say that if you've never lived under the threat of the selective
service draft that was in existence during the fifties and sixties in
the USA then "invasion of privacy" isn't really relevant in the same
sense. Think about it. Uncle Sam had the right to force you into the armed services. If you refused you would go to prison. WE HAD NO CIVIL LIBERTIES in those days. To quote Mr. Gump, "That's all I've got to say about that." |
I wish I could say I didn't expect the compulsory draft to return. Maybe Dubya's 3rd term?
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Pure Brilliance:
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator
Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
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Posted: May 31 2006 at 00:13 |
Ghandi:
"...shoot to wound...?" You've been watching too many Dirty Harry movies. Police are not trained to "shoot to wound," they are trained to shoot at "center mass" - i.e., the largest part of the body (torso) - which includes the heart, lungs and other vital organs. There is no such thing as "shoot to wound." Certainly they may not want to (or try to) kill the perpetrator, but neither are they looking to - much less capable of - shooting a gun out of someone's hand, or hitting them in the leg (especially if they are running).
Crimson is correct: guns do not protect you from criminals. In fact, in the U.S., more people are hurt or killed by their own weapons having been taken from them by the criminal than are able to stop the criminal with that weapon!
Peace.
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator
Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
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Posted: May 31 2006 at 00:16 |
Chicapah:
I did live through the threat of the draft. Yet I consider what is happening now far, far worse. Yes, the draft was an "immediate" and very definite matter of government conpulsion. But it is not the overt, obvious intrusions that we have to worry about, but the more subtle, non-obvious ones - especially when they start piling up. And that is exactly what is happening: subtler intrusions are afoot, and are piling up at an alarming rate.
Peace.
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator
Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
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Posted: May 31 2006 at 00:17 |
Empathy:
Ditto and Bravo!
Peace.
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U.S. Moving Toward Totalitarianism?
