A problem with prog sub-genres and styles - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Rorro

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Posted: May 15 2006 at 13:06

I think he is not trying to say that there shouldn't be categories, he is saying that prog categories should be organized better in his point of view. He is trying to ask if you like the categories as they are now, or if it should be different categories, for example only time-bassed categories, or only geographyical cattegories, but not both at the same time.

In my opinion categories are good by now, i would only eliminate the Italian Symphonic category as Ivan proposed, it's true that Italian Symphonic groups have their own unicque sound that differences them from the rest of the Symphonic scene, but it is still symphonic prog, italian symphonic is kind of a subcategory of symphonic, like french IMO.

Edited by Rorro - May 15 2006 at 13:07

Certif1ed

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Posted: May 15 2006 at 16:24

Like anything, categorisation is useful up to a point, after which it simply becomes confusing.

I believe that the vast and ever-growing numbers of categories are getting a bit too much for many, and the definitions require careful thought, since some are utter nonsense when you think about them.

But that is not to say that all categories are nonsense, as has been pointed out a few times here - they are useful handles for those exploring the genre.

It would just be better, in my opinion, if some of those handles bore a little more accuracy in terms of the musical styles. Of course you'll never get it 100%, but there's no harm in making improvements - and if that means "cutting out the brambles", then that's all the better.

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Wilcey

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Posted: May 15 2006 at 18:39

It;s amazing to see 37 "no" votes (at time of posting) against just seven "yes" votes, yet most of the responses are saying they agree......... are the "NO" voters a timid bunch?

I voted "NO"

Boxes are not useful, I own albums that could at varying points fit into a dozen or more subgenres, yet the fans of 11 probably wont get to hear them because they are billed as the "wrong" sub genre!

Boxes are only good for putting shoes in, or maybe small trinkets.............or taking a cat to the vet.......you get the idea!

As far as it helping to "analyse" the music...........sheeesh! get some daylight! Music is the expressiion of emotion, it is sometihng to be FELT not analysed. It is to stir, or rowse, or make you laugh or dance, it can make you cry, or mourn, it makes you FEEL................if you analyse it you take away it's essence and beauty, it is reducing a living being into an lab experiment. and that my friends is a very sad way to listen to music!

it's been a long day!

P-C

imoeng

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Posted: May 15 2006 at 19:19

For me, i just listen what I like, then I search the information of the band.. man, people have to "listen" to music...

chamberry

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Posted: May 15 2006 at 21:01

imoeng wrote:

For me, i just listen what I like, then I search the information of the band.. man, people have to "listen" to music...

quoted for truth.

I heard most people rejecting certain bands because of their categorization and that's sad

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: May 15 2006 at 22:31

Rorro wrote:

I think he is not trying to say that there shouldn't be categories, he is saying that prog categories should be organized better in his point of view.

Agree 100%, that's what the teams are trying to do, but there must be order in everything before making more dramatic changes.

In our case (Symphonic Team) we are cleaning the house, we can't start working on more complex issues if we have bands that don't have any relation with the genre.

When Art Rock was the sub-genre for semi-prog bands and Prog related didn't existed, Symphonic was the junkyard, being the biggest genre was the best place to hide the corpses.

Don't want to give examples because it will mean to mention names, but for example we found a band that released albums of piabno with waves for massage and relaxation techniques. How in hell meditative worjks for massage and relaxation techniques can ever be related with Prog????? And that is the top of the iceberg

How can we work in the structure if we have albums like this ones? I don't have enough clearance to take a band from Prog Archives (Even when we believe this band should leave), so I had no alternative than send them to Prog Related

This is an extreme case, but we found 4 bands added by same member where he clearly specifies that they are Flamenco Prog, Why didn't he added them to Folk Prog instead of sending them to a place where he knows they don't belong.

There are lots of Folk, Fusion, Neo Prog and even Non Prog albums registered as Symphonic, the average is almost 33% So one third of the bands added in Symphonic are not Symphonic.

But why? The answer is simple, Symphonic is the biggest, most popular and probably people believe with more prestige, so they want their favorite band added even if it's not remotely Prog, but they don't even wan them in Prog Related, they add them to Symphonic.

Then we have almost 40% of non existing and one or two sentence biographies, incomplte or incoherent discigraphies, a lot of bootlegs added, we haven't even started to work on this.

This is an example of a biography we found:

XXXXXX biography: This is a German six-piece band (including two keyboard players) that made only one album in xxxx on the Music Vision label. It is 'eine Sonderfertigung der EMI-Electrola GmbH' which means that it is a special release from EMI-Electrola GmbH.

Does anybody find this bio remotely useful??? Where are the influences, sounds, similarities, styles, etc. (Hide the name to avoid mentioning the "biographer") thankfully there's a Biography team, so they will help when we provide the list.

So after we end this cleaning, we will add Italian Symphonic (Received a PM fro M@X today and the chances are good), so we will recruit an Italian member -Ghost Rider- to exclusively work with all the Italian Symphonic bands, because I'm 100% sure she will find some corpses there also.

Then when we know what we have really, we can start thinking in better terms, adding new bands on waiting list or even changing structures if we believe it's absolutely necessary.

He is trying to ask if you like the categories as they are now, or if it should be different categories, for example only time-bassed categories, or only geographyical cattegories, but not both at the same time.

For me there should not be categories or sub-genres based exclusively in countries and/or regions, except maybe some sub-categories of Folk (A genre based mostly in ethnic and regional influences) if Sean and his team believe so. Canterbury is a different issue, it's not a region based sub-genre as people have said, it's a different style which name is coincident with the region where it was born.

There should only be one category based in a blend of time and style and this is Proto Prog because this is the link between Psychedelia and Prog but also situated in a determined period of time. Don't want to talk about Post Rock because I don't understand it neither like.

IMHO all genres should be based in styles and influences, Symphonic sounds different to Neo Prog; Neo Prog sounds different to Fusion; Fusion sounds different to Prog Metal and so on.

Agree, but as I told you before, this will soon change.

Iván

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Posted: May 15 2006 at 22:37

prog-chick wrote:

It;s amazing to see 37 "no" votes (at time of posting) against just seven "yes" votes, yet most of the responses are saying they agree......... are the "NO" voters a timid bunch?

I voted "NO"

Boxes are not useful, I own albums that could at varying points fit into a dozen or more subgenres, yet the fans of 11 probably wont get to hear them because they are billed as the "wrong" sub genre!

Boxes are only good for putting shoes in, or maybe small trinkets.............or taking a cat to the vet.......you get the idea!

As far as it helping to "analyse" the music...........sheeesh! get some daylight! Music is the expressiion of emotion, it is sometihng to be FELT not analysed. It is to stir, or rowse, or make you laugh or dance, it can make you cry, or mourn, it makes you FEEL................if you analyse it you take away it's essence and beauty, it is reducing a living being into an lab experiment. and that my friends is a very sad way to listen to music!

it's been a long day!

P-C

Hey Prog Chick, did you tread the question?

Youhave voted that Sub-Genres are NOT UNUSEFUL in other words yoiu voted that SUB-GENRES ARE USEFUL.

Progressive Rock as almost no other genre is to feel, but also to understand, that's why most people say they hated a determined album but after listening it 100 times or 10 years they love it.

POP is just to feel and shake your booty, but Prog is a combination of intelect and emotion, we care about it, we analyze the influences, the sounds the timming, at least those of us who really care.

This poll was a cheap trick of Zavgorodny (the 21 posts noob who is against the sub-genres and wants to change in a couple of days what it took us years to build, so don't blame us) and created this Poll trying to make all people vote that Sub-genres are worth nothing.

But it's hard to trick progheads, because we're used to combine feelings and understanding, we explore the posibilities and reach a conclusion.

But most people except you noticed the the trick, that's why the votes are 39 to 7, but don't worry lets leave it 38 to 8 being that you were surprised.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 16 2006 at 03:09

Certif1ed

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Posted: May 16 2006 at 02:56

it's been a long day!

P-C

One of the great things about Prog music is that you can analyse it.

There are people that only want emotional responses from music - and that's fine.

However, there are also those of us that are so overwhelmed by the emotional responses that music produces that we want to find out how it does it - in many cases because there are many members here who are musicians who would like to put some of that emotion into their own music.

Getting intense feelings out of music is great.

Understanding the triggers in the music itself through analysis can take the listener up several levels of emotional intensity. Personally I get as much of rush when a piece of music sets the hairs on the back of my neck on edge as I do when I discover the nifty technique that a band has used ro achieve that.

But I agree heartily with the sentiment that boxes are only good for putting things in - and if you put music in a box, it gets muffled and you can't hear it properly.

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Wilcey

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Posted: May 16 2006 at 03:20

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Hey Prog Chick, did you tread the question?

Youhave voted that Sub-Genres are NOT UNUSEFUL in other words yoiu voted that SUB-GENRES ARE USEFUL.

Progressive Rock as almost no other genre is to feel, but also to understand, that's why most people say they hated a determined album but after listening it 100 times or 10 years they love it.

POP is just to feel and shake your booty, but Prog is a combination of intelect and emotion, we care about it, we analyze the influences, the sounds the timming, at least those of us who really care.

This poll was a cheap trick of [COLOR=#000000">Zavgorodny[/COLOR"> (the 21 posts noob who is against the sub-genres and wants to change in a couple of days what it took us years to build, so don't blame us) and created this Poll trying to make all people vote that Sub-genres are worth nothing.

But it's hard to trick progheads, because we're used to combine feelings and understanding, we explore the posibilities and reach a conclusion.

But most people except you noticed the the trick, that's why the votes are 39 to 7, but don't worry lets leave it 38 to 8 being that you were surprised. eight=17 alt=LOL src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>

Iván

It's not hard to trick me so late at night!!!

(obviously!!!)

I still stand by what I said tho........... over analysis is not good for music, To feel and "shake your booty" well thats no bad thing?
All this "my music is cleverer than your music" stuff, and analysis and "our fans are more intellectual/serious than your fans" stuff is just little boys in the woods seeing who can pee highest up the tree..........

sometimes "shaking you booty" is what you need to do!

I like what cert1fied said "if you out music in boxes the souns gets muffled"

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: May 16 2006 at 15:35

prog-chick wrote:

I still stand by what I said tho........... over analysis is not good for music, To feel and "shake your booty" well thats no bad thing?

I agree, but this was a cheap trick (Being a lawyer I know most ) to assure that most people voted against sub-genres, bt it didn't worked.

Now, I like to shake my booty in a disco or a party as anyone, but I assure you I won't spent hours listening dance music, it's purpose is to dance.

All this "my music is cleverer than your music" stuff, and analysis and "our fans are more intellectual/serious than your fans" stuff is just little boys in the woods seeing who can pee highest up the tree..........

Clever is a wrong word, but even you must admit that Prog Rock is challenging music, you require an intelectual component also, most of the people will never listen Prog because it's too hard, they just want simple music to enjoy and forget tomorrow.

sometimes "shaking you booty" is what you need to do!

I can't do it now, my girlfriend is working in New York, and Lima is a small city, if I go to dance, she will know it the next day, so i'm living as a monk.

I like what cert1fied said "if you out music in boxes the souns gets muffled"

Oh please, don't you know Cert? He's overwhelmed because most sub-genres are inexact, he over analyze things more than any other member, the guy has studied music most of his life, he corrects and analyze even the terms we use.

You can check his posts about complex structures, odd timmings, rare musical formats and you'll find how he thinks, I can hardly understand some of them.

Sub-genres are created to help people understand better our genre, not to put bands in boxes, but similar bands should be together.

Iván

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Posted: May 17 2006 at 05:19

I must admit I feel underwhelmed rather than overwhelmed by most of the classifications...

I don't think I over analyse anything - I can go far deeper if you'd like. On the contrary, I feel that most people don't spend enough time analysing music that is simply made to be analysed as well as enjoyed in its own right.

...and I'd like to see booty shaking to some of the more complex Prog Rock - especially in 13/8...

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Kord

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Posted: June 10 2006 at 11:36

I voted No...they are useful

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/Genesis_Group.jpg" border">

Poll Question: Is typical definition of prog sub-genres unuseful?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Yes	9	[15.00%]
No	50	[83.33%]
What definitions?	1	[1.67%]
What prog?	0	[0.00%]
Sorry, I can't read	0	[0.00%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted