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Topic ClosedA problem with prog sub-genres and styles

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Poll Question: Is typical definition of prog sub-genres unuseful?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
9 [15.00%]
50 [83.33%]
1 [1.67%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
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Zavgorodny View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: A problem with prog sub-genres and styles
    Posted: May 12 2006 at 16:26

Problem.

Typical & commonly used definitions of prog music sub-genres and sub-styles are useless.
 
Why.
 
Because you get nothing good if you use geographical (Canterbury, Italian), time-based (proto-, neo-) and stylistic (symphonic, metal) criteria simultaneously.
 
Or am I the only one who understands it?
yes, I know, my English is far from perfect. I comfortable with it.
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Zavgorodny View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 16:27
if you wonder, my vote is 'Yes'
yes, I know, my English is far from perfect. I comfortable with it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 16:35
in the tapestry that is prog rock, you must have some kind of guide, especially if you're a beginner! (even if you're an experienced progger). 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 17:12

I voted yes. They are just artificial pigeonholes. I doubt that any artist decides “I’m going to do neo prog but I’m not touching symphonic prog with a 10 foot pole.” Creating these artificial pigeonholes may make the bands easier to talk about but it pretends that bands don’t use a myriad of influences and styles. And shouldn’t “progressive” groups use a lot of different ideas?

“Great things are not accomplished by those who yield to trends and fads and popular opinion.”

~Jack Kerouac
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 17:22
Of cause their usefull, without them PA would be totaly chaotic when defining the predominant sound of a band.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 17:38
I'd say that they were ONLY useful here. Thanks to this site (and a lot of time spent reading by me) I've found plenty of bands I love who I'd otherwise never have heard of. I discovered one of my favourites - Magma - through clicking on the "Zeuhl" subgenre, wondering just what the hell it was. Tongue

but then again, I don't sit down and decide to listen to Zeuhl because there's a substantial difference between every band I listen to. I might sit down and decide to listen to Weidorje. It's a category and nothing more - if you get offended because of a perceived miscategorisation then I'd start to worry about where your musical taste really comes from. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 17:41
Useful, but should be cut down upon. Italian symphonic isn't overly different from regular symphonic, aside from that it's generally sung in Italian. Proto-prog pretty much is prog related. I'm not counting Canterbury scene though. It started off in one area, but it's all over the place now and seems distinct enough to warrant its own subgenre (usually).

Anyway, to sum it up... mostly useful.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 18:14
I think they're useful. It's the best way to organize artists and not get lost in a huge prog genre, that gasps all from post rock to death metal. That would be a horrible mess, making it nearly impossible to find similar artists, and establish what they don't like. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 19:00
They are very useful IMO. I think of it as a guide, "if you like this band then you'll probably will like this band since thay make the same style of music"

And as others said. If there wasn't any genre then It'll be a big mess. Univers zero and Sigur Ros aren't the same in any way  and this needs to be said and explained so people could understand their styles and kind of music more.

There are many good things about putting bands in sub-genres. So I'll vote for no.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 19:33

On the platform it's highly important and very useful. Think about a site like this without these typical subgenre-definitions, it would get lost in chaotic dimensions. If you go on the music by a artist/band itself, it's somehow just very unfocused to put the band with their music in a specific bag. One good example is the band Riverside: It's good that they are named under the banner "prog metal", since there are definitely some clear metal parts in their music and their style has that metallic edge, with which non-metal listeners could have problems with. But if you go nearer on the music, you will soon recognize that they just have very little in common with metal. Their style can at best be described as a mix of psychedelic/space rock elements, hints of prog metal and art rock. IMO they should be thrown in the "art rock" bag, but that could bring on confusions with many people. Indeedly they are a band where the subgenre definition shouldn't get that serious influence on the listener's foreshadowed expection about the music. Here it works not really well, but there are also other bands where such problems come to place. But overall, it's helpful all the way. Any one needs a idea what to expect about the artist/group's musical direction.

"All you need to do is sit back, and acquire the taste." - GENTLE GIANT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 19:48
I think they are useful. Granted you get alot of debates on this forum about them and what groups belong where, but they're needed as a guide esp for beginners.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 19:55
I think that in every field of human knowledge categories are no more than conventions to organize things and give a simple comprehension of them, because human mind longs for simplicity - in this sense I think they are useful and necessary. In other words, I find useful to know under which category is classified a band that I don't know yet, although I know I will find in that band some particular elements that make it unique and different from other bands in the same category.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 20:02
Subgenres are very useful as terms of communication and very brief and rough description of music.
 
I also find it very useful to know whether restaurant I am going to for the first time is French or Italian or Japanese or Indian or Chinese or whatever else cuisine, on top of the information that food is good there...
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 21:51
It's useful if you want to get into a prog sub-genre...... to know how it is.
But the music is first.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 21:52
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Of cause their usefull, without them PA would be totaly chaotic when defining the predominant sound of a band.


 
I agree.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2006 at 22:06

None are useful.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2006 at 00:32
Originally posted by Zavgorodny Zavgorodny wrote:

Problem.

Typical & commonly used definitions of prog music sub-genres and sub-styles are useless.
 
 
Just let me ask you a couple of questions:
 
  1. Is there any web site or bibliographical Prog material that doesn't consider sub genres?
  2. How could a person who doesn't know much about prog but loves Genesis and hates Jazz will avoid buying Romantic Warrior an album with a cover that reminds more of Rick Wakeman than of a Fusion band?
  3. How would any person find similar bands to the ones that he/she really like if there were not sub-genres?
  4. How can you lump Genesis, King Crimson, Mahavishnu, Henry Cow and Pink Floyd in one sack named Progressive Rock if none of them have almost anything in common? (If I had a dollar for each toime I was asked this I would be rich)
  5. Do you know that Classical Music (Understood as orchestral works from the late Gothic to the XIst Century have genres (Gothic, Renaissance, Baroque, Classic, Romantic, Post Romantic, Modern)?
  6. Do you know that Heavy Metal has sub genres (Death, Viking, Classical, etc)? 
  7. Do you know that Jazz has sub-genres (Classic, Free Jazz, Fusion, Latin Jazz, etc)?
  8. How would you analyze the influences and the common points of different bands if you don't join them with those that are similar?
  9. How would you understand the evolution of Prog Rock (Of courseif you care) if it wasn't for Sub-Genres?
  10. How can you even attempt to understand the wide range of influences that Prog Rock has recieved if it wasn't divided by sub-genres?

Originally posted by Zavgorodny Zavgorodny wrote:

Because you get nothing good if you use geographical (Canterbury, Italian), time-based (proto-, neo-) and stylistic (symphonic, metal) criteria simultaneously.

 
Canterbury is a Region, but also defines a special and unique style older than anything we know as Progressive Rock, has a unique blend of Jazz, Psychedelia and Rock, the name is coincident with a region only because it was born there.
 
Italian Symphonic: I agree that today it is useless, because there are Symphonic bands all around the world and despite their unique qualities, this is not enough to justify a sub-genre, our team is planning to absorb it into Symphonic. But in the very early 70's the only nation that really could step proudly in froint of UK when talking about Progressive Rock was Italy.
 
Proto Prog: Sorry, but if you don't get the importance of Proto Prog you don't understand the evolution of Progressive Rock, this is the direct link between Psychedelia and Progressive Rock, yet not 100% Prog, but far more advanced than every other musical style.
 
Neo Prog: If you believe that Neo Prog only represents a period in time, you're even more lost than I thought, the difference between Symphonic and Neo Prog is clear in most of the cases, the style is still complex and clearly Prog, but it accepts more mainstream influences due to the birth of New Wave and Punk, many people that love Symphonic hate Neo Prog, I used to be one of those, but now I love bands as Fish Marillion, Pendragon, IQ, Magenta, etc.
 
Prog Metal: If you don't understand why Prog Metal is so different to almost any Progressive Sub-Genre, then better forget about Prog and if you can find the difference between Thordendal's (Fredrik Sopecoial Defects jazzuy sound and Pain of Salvation's almost Gothic Symphonic style, well, you have some hearing problems.
 
Originally posted by Zavgorodny Zavgorodny wrote:

Or am I the only one who understands it?
 
No, you're not the only one, there are a couple more who I believe are wrong.

Please man, be real......Sub-genres exist not only here, but anywhere, accept them because they will stay.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 13 2006 at 01:01
            
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Raff View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2006 at 03:19
As long as it doesn't end up being a prison, I think using subgenres is definitely useful - exactly for the same reasons that Ivan has so clearly explained in the above message.
 
Prog is such a varied, sprawling phenomenon that someone new to the genre would not be capable of making heads or tails of it without a sort of guide. Even those who are more familiar with the genre (as in my case) may be familiar with some subgenres, but not with others, and therefore need some sort of guidance in getting acquainted with new bands or artists. Lumping everything in one big mess under the heading of "prog" (as some sites I know do) only results in confusion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2006 at 05:34
Yes!
Artists/Bands can make diffrent genres
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2006 at 14:03
Useful.
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