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Cheesecakemouse 
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 Topic: Should Miles Davis be in the archives
Posted: May 09 2006 at 08:44 |
Basically if there was no Miles Davis, there was no fusion as we know it today. Groups from Mahavishnu Orc to King Crimson owe a huge amount to Miles. KC'S album Starless and Bible Black was heavily influenced by Miles Davis album "A Tribute to Jack Johnson." - (not the guitarist, but rather the boxer)
Several sources classify his fusion albums are progressive rock, ie the Coloumbia music catalogue I recieved classified Bitches Brew as progressive Rock. On a Miles Davis dvd I watched that had a documentary about Bitchs Brew; the band memebers said that they were no longer playing jazz on Bitches Brew, that it was something else. Also a album sleeve book I read listed Miles Davis album On the Corner as prog.
What more can I say?  So vote and discuss.
Edited by Cheesecakemouse - January 05 2007 at 16:58
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Chipiron
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 08:49 |
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I don't think so, although I've only listened to "Kind of Blue", ayway, I didn't like it but I don't mind giving it another chance.
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Cheesecakemouse
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 08:53 |
 Chipiron wrote:
I don't think so, although I've only listened to "Kind of Blue", ayway, I didn't like it but I don't mind giving it another chance. |
Kind of Blue, although pleasant, is not during his his crazed fusion period,Get his albums Bitches Brew or else Tribute to Jack Johnson, or pretty much anything from 1969-through the 70s, you won't believe its the same guy that performed A Kind of Blue  .
Edited by Cheesecakemouse - May 09 2006 at 08:58
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Tuzvihar
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 09:22 |
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"Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent."
Charles Bukowski
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FragileDT
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 09:57 |
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I think that Miles Davis should be in the archives as "Proto-Jazz/Fusion" if there would exist such a genre. He was VERY influential to the beginning of the Jazz/Fusion scene.
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One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity
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crimson thing
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 10:14 |
On balance I dont think he should be listed here. (I have Bitches Brew, and some compilations of his earlier Jazz stuff.) Although BB is very similar to the work of some other bands which are listed here, eg his erstwhile collaborator, Chick Corea's, Return to Forever, its still recognizably a Jazz work - and his earlier stuff is clearly Jazz.
So I voted No - this is, after all, a progressive rock forum.
(If you let him in, I'll start agitating for Brubeck & Coltrane, & the worms will come flying out of the can....) 
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Mandrakeroot
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 10:35 |
[QUOTE=Tuzvihar]YES! He's the creator of fusion: Bitches Brew, Big Fun, Pangaea, Agharta 
Uhm... Uhm... Uhm... I voted No because Miles Davis is basically a Jazz artist and not a Prog artist.
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Phil
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 11:13 |
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Chipiron wrote:
I don't think so, although I've only listened to "Kind of Blue", ayway, I didn't like it but I don't mind giving it another chance. |
Kind of Blue, although pleasant, is not during his his crazed fusion period,Get his albums Bitches Brew or else Tribute to Jack Johnson, or pretty much anything from 1969-through the 70s, you won't believe its the same guy that performed A Kind of Blue . |
Bullseye with your comments - "Kind of Blue" is often voted as the "best" jazz album amongst those that vote in those sort of polls - but Bitches Brew is altogether a different beast. Look at the roll call of musicians he used - more impressive than even FZ's line ups: John McLaughlin, Tony Williams, Chick Corea, Herbie hancock, Joe Zawinul, Wayne Shorter, etc.........
Shoudl he be on this site? Well again I think this shows the limitations of the categories used - either an artist (& his entire catalogue) are "in" or "out" on PA; listen to Kind of Blue, and you say, of course not; listen to Bitches Brew, and you have to say, of course. So I vote yes - but in a selective way!
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memowakeman
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 11:32 |
Since proto prog and prog related exists, Miles Davis should beconsidered in one of that genres...FragilDT said that he was VERY influential of th Jazz/Fusion scene.. of course i agree, but it makes me think about a kind of sub genre called "Influential prog" or something...
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mystic fred
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 11:41 |
i would have expected to see "Bitches Brew" on PA by now, in the jazz/rock fusion section. 
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Dr. Occulator
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 12:18 |
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Bitches Brew alone makes Miles progressive. He did alot of other great fusion prog as well.
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My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head.
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FragileDT
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 12:37 |
memowakeman wrote:
Since proto prog and prog related exists, Miles Davis should beconsidered in one of that genres...FragilDT said that he was VERY influential of th Jazz/Fusion scene.. of course i agree, but it makes me think about a kind of sub genre called "Influential prog" or something...
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Exactly, which is why Proto-Prog exists. As the definition reads:
"Rock Bands in existence prior to 1969 that influenced the development of progressive rock. The late 60's was a predominately experimental period for music. These bands were moving in a stream that eventually led to prog. The influence could have come from new sophisticated forms of writing and playing music, recording techniques, new instruments and vocal harmonies to name a few. Some of these bands became progressive rock bands themselves others did not."
Since Jazz/Fusion is a subgenre of progressive rock, Miles should be considered "Proto-Prog."
EDIT: And to Crimson thing: We know that this is a progressive
rock forum but do you think that "rock" is really the best term to describe the genre?
Bands like Gentle Giant and VDGG or almost any prog band for that matter, have just as much rock influence as classical music and jazz. Progressive rock is a term that has been used and excepted but that doesn't necessarily mean that all of the bands in the genre have to be centralized around a "rock" sound.
Edited by FragileDT - May 09 2006 at 12:40
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One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
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Shatter the illusion
Of integrity
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eugene
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 12:44 |
Why the hell not???
Of course he should - much more than many others.
As long as fusion is considered progressive music, of course.
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carefulwiththataxe
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crimson thing
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 13:37 |
Hi Frag
Since Jazz/Fusion is a subgenre of progressive rock, Miles should be considered "Proto-Prog."
EDIT: And to Crimson thing: We know that this is a progressive
rock forum but do you think that "rock" is really the best term to describe the genre?
Bands like Gentle Giant and VDGG or almost any prog band for that matter, have just as much rock influence as classical music and jazz. Progressive rock is a term that has been used and excepted but that doesn't necessarily mean that all of the bands in the genre have to be centralized around a "rock" sound. |
Well, I didnt name or brand this site, which presents itself as
with the "R" word 
I do think, though - and I accept that I'm a very new newbie here - that if you let MD in, it would be the thin end of the wedge, & that you could then have a clamour for any & every Jazz musician or band who ever recorded an even slightly prog-like track to be included. You will eventually have to draw a line somewhere - I personally would draw it between MD & the prog masses. But if you do decide to adopt him, I think you should first decide where in future you would draw the line.
I would also reckon (and I havent checked his entire discography, this is just a feeling) that for every album of MDs that would fit here, there is another which is clearly on the Jazz side of the divide.
A personal comment, not germane to the yea/nay MD argument - I rather like fusiony-jazz/rock stuff - eg nucleus, Return to Forever, Colosseum (I&II); and I like lots of Jazz, including MDs earlier stuff. But I tried to listen to Bitches Brew again a few days ago & I had to turn it off & put on a different CD as it didnt inspire me at all. Illogical.
Regards, CT (alias Steve) 
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Dick Heath
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 15:19 |
Listen to Miles Davis's CBS Years 4 CD boxset and you will believe this
is
the guy who played bebop, post bop, the cool of Kind A Blue (apparently
the
best selling jazz album ever), did Bitches Brew. Miles Davis
continually
evolved not sitting still, unlike Wyntron Marsalis (who infact has gone
backwards IMHO). But as stated many times in PA, Miles Davis did not
invent
jazz rock fusion - for goodnesssake do some reading and research, e.g a
good
start point is Stuart Nicholson's Jazz Rock A History. Miles Davis's
main
influence on this sub-genre is moving jazz rock fusion (indeed jazz
funk
fusion) from the underground to become a mainstream musical force - but
even
then the great Miles Davis Groups of the late 60's and early 70's often
didn't have lead billing at gigs - check out the other performers and
their
comparative status for the famous Fillmore shows.
With a discography that goes back before 1945, (and all those
compialtion
albums) Miles Davis would prove a real nightmare for inclusion in the
current set up of PA (i.e. inclusion means ever legit album may be
listed
and reviewed), when perhaps we only want to list the post-1968 albums -
and
then if you read the most recent Miles Davis biography covering his
last 10
years of life, then you will discover Davis wanted to and did record
with
Prince and rap artists.
Personally all for the inclusion of the late 60's and 70's albums, but
they
only reflect a small fraction of Davis's output.
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salmacis
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 16:09 |
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It's a tough one, imo. I don't see how albums like 'Bitches Brew', 'Jack Johnson' and 'On The Corner' CAN'T be here (when you consider the personnel and the bands they all formed are here, let alone the music), but I don't think having his whole discography here will work at all (if I'm honest, I'm not a huge pure jazz fan anyway but jazz rock I'm a big fan of). I don't think there's ever been a clearer case of having an artist with only selected albums included.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 16:48 |
I don't think so - the Prog-related part is but a very tiny fragment of his (amazing) output.
Even ABBA produced some prog-related material...
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 16:53 |
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I think the main argument against including him is that he is not really a rock artist. He is Jazz, much more so than Zappa (Bitches Brew/Hot Rats are always compared).
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 17:08 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
I think the main argument against including him is that he is not really a rock artist. He is Jazz, much more so than Zappa (Bitches Brew/Hot Rats are always compared). |
Was Zappa really a rock artist or a composer?
Tangerine Dream?
Just a thought.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 09 2006 at 17:13 |
I know that Zappa originally wanted to make non-rock music ... but he ended up making mostly rock-related music. Indeed the perfect label for Zappa is "Avant-Garde Rock" IMO.
Tangerine Dream ... I don't know their entire discography, but what I've heard wasn't Rock-Related and therefore I say: Remove them!
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - May 09 2006 at 18:08
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Should Miles Davis be in the archives
