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James Lee 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
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Points: 3525
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 Posted: May 06 2006 at 01:48 |
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I don't fully accept that the confrontation is between any group of nations, or opposing religions. I'm haunted by the possibility that something fundamental and irreconcilable exists. People are people, sure, but what if we cannot hope to reach a workable understanding without something very important being lost on either side?
Try to put aside the US vs. Terrorism rhetoric and examine the European or SE Asian situation. Could it be that some cultures can be truly incompatible, and that tolerance may have as much of a potential for blindness as extremism?
These are the doubts that currently haunt a generally compassionate, open-minded, and healthily skeptical man.
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 15:30 |
 marktheshark wrote:
sleeper wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
marktheshark wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
James Lee wrote:
As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation." |
Well, his absence from this discussion is therefore no great loss. Not that I contest his right to that opinion. The extremists on the Muslim side of the fence hold the same views about Jews and Christians..probably. No one side is exclusively right or wrong. |
I don't know about that Blackie. Christians and Jews don't go killing people for not being Christians and Jews. The extremist Muslims hate us simply for what we are. They hate us for our culture, our lifestyle. They hate us for MTV, they hate us for Madonna kissing Britney on TV, they hate us for R&R (Prog too, I imagine), they hate us for pornography, they hate us for our tolerance toward gays. The list goes on. |
Hiya Mark. Well I dont want to go round in circles here, but I'm sceptical of the claim they hate us 'because' of our lifestyle. Our leaders would have us believe they hate us for the reasons you describe, but I beieve the problem the extremists - and it is really just the extremists - have with us is our double standards when it comes to how we treat the Arab/Muslim world. Iran is a recent and perhaps less relevant example. They are after all breaking no international laws in pursuing nuclear power. In fact they are breaking no rules - technically - if they are seeking to make WMD too. Our unconditional support of Israel in their occupation of Palestine is at the heart of the problem too. A serious double standard prevails there too. I'm no expert on the Quoran, but I know that Christians are not portrayed as enemies of Islam in those verses. In fact quite the opposite. While I'll never advocate any act of terror, we will never resolve the ill feeling until we take a step back and look at the real reasons that a terror threat exists. |
I dont know if you saw it Blaksword, but over Christmas channel 4 ran a series called The Root Of All Evil? aimed at religion in general. Though the Oxford professor who was presenting was being very confrontational, his interview with a converted Muslim (from Jeudasim) was worrying as what he said amounted to "we wont stop until you fix your sociaty". IF all extremist are like this thats not very rasureing to any chance of peace. |
I don't really agree with that. Religion has always seemed to be the scapegoat for evil deeds. I think religion is more a justification and not a motivation. IMO the motivation is simply power. Do you really think Bin Laden gives a rat's flatulence about Mohammed and virgins? If that were the case why would he be contantly hiding and not just make a martre of himself?
Or how about Stalin or even Hussein himself? They weren't religious. Or even on a lower level say someone like Charles Manson. You really think he believed all that crap about the Beatles and Revelations?
Put yourself in these wacko's shoes. You got all these people, mostly destitute and down trodden, believing everything you say and most likely will do everything you tell them. The temptation to toy with that is going to be pretty stiff.
No to me it's power, pure and simple. Religion is just an excuse and not the motive.
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With the leaders of these fanatical groups your probably right, but the followers are the ones that believe and there the ones that sprout the nonsense I sighted in my previous post.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1695
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 15:24 |
sleeper wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
marktheshark wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
James Lee wrote:
As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation." |
Well, his absence from this discussion is therefore no great loss. Not that I contest his right to that opinion. The extremists on the Muslim side of the fence hold the same views about Jews and Christians..probably. No one side is exclusively right or wrong. |
I don't know about that Blackie. Christians and Jews don't go killing people for not being Christians and Jews. The extremist Muslims hate us simply for what we are. They hate us for our culture, our lifestyle. They hate us for MTV, they hate us for Madonna kissing Britney on TV, they hate us for R&R (Prog too, I imagine), they hate us for pornography, they hate us for our tolerance toward gays. The list goes on. |
Hiya Mark. Well I dont want to go round in circles here, but I'm sceptical of the claim they hate us 'because' of our lifestyle. Our leaders would have us believe they hate us for the reasons you describe, but I beieve the problem the extremists - and it is really just the extremists - have with us is our double standards when it comes to how we treat the Arab/Muslim world. Iran is a recent and perhaps less relevant example. They are after all breaking no international laws in pursuing nuclear power. In fact they are breaking no rules - technically - if they are seeking to make WMD too. Our unconditional support of Israel in their occupation of Palestine is at the heart of the problem too. A serious double standard prevails there too. I'm no expert on the Quoran, but I know that Christians are not portrayed as enemies of Islam in those verses. In fact quite the opposite. While I'll never advocate any act of terror, we will never resolve the ill feeling until we take a step back and look at the real reasons that a terror threat exists. |
I dont know if you saw it Blaksword, but over Christmas channel 4 ran a series called The Root Of All Evil? aimed at religion in general. Though the Oxford professor who was presenting was being very confrontational, his interview with a converted Muslim (from Jeudasim) was worrying as what he said amounted to "we wont stop until you fix your sociaty". IF all extremist are like this thats not very rasureing to any chance of peace. |
I don't really agree with that. Religion has always seemed to be the scapegoat for evil deeds. I think religion is more a justification and not a motivation. IMO the motivation is simply power. Do you really think Bin Laden gives a rat's flatulence about Mohammed and virgins? If that were the case why would he be contantly hiding and not just make a martre of himself?
Or how about Stalin or even Hussein himself? They weren't religious. Or even on a lower level say someone like Charles Manson. You really think he believed all that crap about the Beatles and Revelations?
Put yourself in these wacko's shoes. You got all these people, mostly destitute and down trodden, believing everything you say and most likely will do everything you tell them. The temptation to toy with that is going to be pretty stiff.
No to me it's power, pure and simple. Religion is just an excuse and not the motive.
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1695
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 14:40 |
Blacksword wrote:
marktheshark wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
James Lee wrote:
As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation."
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Well, his absence from this discussion is therefore no great loss. Not that I contest his right to that opinion.
The extremists on the Muslim side of the fence hold the same views about Jews and Christians..probably. No one side is exclusively right or wrong.
|
I don't know about that Blackie. Christians and Jews don't go killing people for not being Christians and Jews.
The extremist Muslims hate us simply for what we are. They hate us for our culture, our lifestyle. They hate us for MTV, they hate us for Madonna kissing Britney on TV, they hate us for R&R (Prog too, I imagine), they hate us for pornography, they hate us for our tolerance toward gays.
The list goes on.
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Hiya Mark.
Well I dont want to go round in circles here, but I'm sceptical of the claim they hate us 'because' of our lifestyle. Our leaders would have us believe they hate us for the reasons you describe, but I beieve the problem the extremists - and it is really just the extremists - have with us is our double standards when it comes to how we treat the Arab/Muslim world. Iran is a recent and perhaps less relevant example. They are after all breaking no international laws in pursuing nuclear power. In fact they are breaking no rules - technically - if they are seeking to make WMD too. Our unconditional support of Israel in their occupation of Palestine is at the heart of the problem too. A serious double standard prevails there too.
I'm no expert on the Quoran, but I know that Christians are not portrayed as enemies of Islam in those verses. In fact quite the opposite.
While I'll never advocate any act of terror, we will never resolve the ill feeling until we take a step back and look at the real reasons that a terror threat exists.
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Well, in the situation with Iran I can see Israel being a factor of course. But in the case of AlQueda I think our culture as being a "poison" to them is certainly an element. Particularly capitalism, hence why the WTC was a primary target.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 13:59 |
sleeper wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
marktheshark wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
James Lee wrote:
As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation." |
Well, his absence from this discussion is therefore no great loss. Not that I contest his right to that opinion. The extremists on the Muslim side of the fence hold the same views about Jews and Christians..probably. No one side is exclusively right or wrong. |
I don't know about that Blackie. Christians and Jews don't go killing people for not being Christians and Jews. The extremist Muslims hate us simply for what we are. They hate us for our culture, our lifestyle. They hate us for MTV, they hate us for Madonna kissing Britney on TV, they hate us for R&R (Prog too, I imagine), they hate us for pornography, they hate us for our tolerance toward gays. The list goes on. |
Hiya Mark. Well I dont want to go round in circles here, but I'm sceptical of the claim they hate us 'because' of our lifestyle. Our leaders would have us believe they hate us for the reasons you describe, but I beieve the problem the extremists - and it is really just the extremists - have with us is our double standards when it comes to how we treat the Arab/Muslim world. Iran is a recent and perhaps less relevant example. They are after all breaking no international laws in pursuing nuclear power. In fact they are breaking no rules - technically - if they are seeking to make WMD too. Our unconditional support of Israel in their occupation of Palestine is at the heart of the problem too. A serious double standard prevails there too. I'm no expert on the Quoran, but I know that Christians are not portrayed as enemies of Islam in those verses. In fact quite the opposite. While I'll never advocate any act of terror, we will never resolve the ill feeling until we take a step back and look at the real reasons that a terror threat exists. |
I dont know if you saw it Blaksword, but over Christmas channel 4 ran a series called The Root Of All Evil? aimed at religion in general. Though the Oxford professor who was presenting was being very confrontational, his interview with a converted Muslim (from Jeudasim) was worrying as what he said amounted to "we wont stop until you fix your sociaty". IF all extremist are like this thats not very rasureing to any chance of peace. |
Hi Sleeper.
Yeah, I did see some of it. I'm an athiest, but I did not like that professors aproach. It was confrontational, and this detracted from the the credibility of his arguments IMO.
There are extremists in all religions and within all political ideologies. I would agree that extrenism needs to be confronted, but it bothers me that we are so selective in who we choose to confront. We confronted Iraq,because of their appaling human rights record - we always knew they had no WMD as far as I'm concerned - but we're good buddies with Saudi and supposadly with Pakistan. Both these nations abuse human rights and are bigger breeding grounds for terrorists than Iraq ever was; that is for terror acts committed outside those countries. 9/11 springs to mind, as most of the hi-jackers were Saudi.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 13:50 |
marktheshark wrote:
sleeper wrote:
marktheshark wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
James Lee wrote:
As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation." |
Well, his absence from this discussion is therefore no great loss. Not that I contest his right to that opinion. The extremists on the Muslim side of the fence hold the same views about Jews and Christians..probably. No one side is exclusively right or wrong. |
I don't know about that Blackie. Christians and Jews don't go killing people for not being Christians and Jews. The extremist Muslims hate us simply for what we are. They hate us for our culture, our lifestyle. They hate us for MTV, they hate us for Madonna kissing Britney on TV, they hate us for R&R (Prog too, I imagine), they hate us for pornography, they hate us for our tolerance toward gays. The list goes on. |
No, generally Christians kill each other for being "the wrong type of Christan" (Northern Ireland anyone). The Crusades were also motivated by religion |
That may have been true 100s of years ago. But now?
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Northern Ireland was the last fewe decades at least, though there hasnt been any events that have caught the headlines recently.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 13:48 |
Blacksword wrote:
marktheshark wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
James Lee wrote:
As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation."
|
Well, his absence from this discussion is therefore no great loss. Not that I contest his right to that opinion.
The extremists on the Muslim side of the fence hold the same views about Jews and Christians..probably. No one side is exclusively right or wrong.
|
I don't know about that Blackie. Christians and Jews don't go killing people for not being Christians and Jews.
The extremist Muslims hate us simply for what we are. They hate us for our culture, our lifestyle. They hate us for MTV, they hate us for Madonna kissing Britney on TV, they hate us for R&R (Prog too, I imagine), they hate us for pornography, they hate us for our tolerance toward gays.
The list goes on.
|
Hiya Mark.
Well I dont want to go round in circles here, but I'm sceptical of the claim they hate us 'because' of our lifestyle. Our leaders would have us believe they hate us for the reasons you describe, but I beieve the problem the extremists - and it is really just the extremists - have with us is our double standards when it comes to how we treat the Arab/Muslim world. Iran is a recent and perhaps less relevant example. They are after all breaking no international laws in pursuing nuclear power. In fact they are breaking no rules - technically - if they are seeking to make WMD too. Our unconditional support of Israel in their occupation of Palestine is at the heart of the problem too. A serious double standard prevails there too.
I'm no expert on the Quoran, but I know that Christians are not portrayed as enemies of Islam in those verses. In fact quite the opposite.
While I'll never advocate any act of terror, we will never resolve the ill feeling until we take a step back and look at the real reasons that a terror threat exists.
|
I dont know if you saw it Blaksword, but over Christmas channel 4 ran a series called The Root Of All Evil? aimed at religion in general. Though the Oxford professor who was presenting was being very confrontational, his interview with a converted Muslim (from Jeudasim) was worrying as what he said amounted to "we wont stop until you fix your sociaty". IF all extremist are like this thats not very rasureing to any chance of peace.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 13:24 |
marktheshark wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
James Lee wrote:
As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation."
|
Well, his absence from this discussion is therefore no great loss. Not that I contest his right to that opinion.
The extremists on the Muslim side of the fence hold the same views about Jews and Christians..probably. No one side is exclusively right or wrong.
|
I don't know about that Blackie. Christians and Jews don't go killing people for not being Christians and Jews.
The extremist Muslims hate us simply for what we are. They hate us for our culture, our lifestyle. They hate us for MTV, they hate us for Madonna kissing Britney on TV, they hate us for R&R (Prog too, I imagine), they hate us for pornography, they hate us for our tolerance toward gays.
The list goes on.
|
Hiya Mark.
Well I dont want to go round in circles here, but I'm sceptical of the claim they hate us 'because' of our lifestyle. Our leaders would have us believe they hate us for the reasons you describe, but I beieve the problem the extremists - and it is really just the extremists - have with us is our double standards when it comes to how we treat the Arab/Muslim world. Iran is a recent and perhaps less relevant example. They are after all breaking no international laws in pursuing nuclear power. In fact they are breaking no rules - technically - if they are seeking to make WMD too. Our unconditional support of Israel in their occupation of Palestine is at the heart of the problem too. A serious double standard prevails there too.
I'm no expert on the Quoran, but I know that Christians are not portrayed as enemies of Islam in those verses. In fact quite the opposite.
While I'll never advocate any act of terror, we will never resolve the ill feeling until we take a step back and look at the real reasons that a terror threat exists.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1695
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 13:11 |
sleeper wrote:
marktheshark wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
James Lee wrote:
As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation." |
Well, his absence from this discussion is therefore no great loss. Not that I contest his right to that opinion. The extremists on the Muslim side of the fence hold the same views about Jews and Christians..probably. No one side is exclusively right or wrong. |
I don't know about that Blackie. Christians and Jews don't go killing people for not being Christians and Jews. The extremist Muslims hate us simply for what we are. They hate us for our culture, our lifestyle. They hate us for MTV, they hate us for Madonna kissing Britney on TV, they hate us for R&R (Prog too, I imagine), they hate us for pornography, they hate us for our tolerance toward gays. The list goes on. |
No, generally Christians kill each other for being "the wrong type of Christan" (Northern Ireland anyone). The Crusades were also motivated by religion |
That may have been true 100s of years ago. But now?
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 12:54 |
marktheshark wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
James Lee wrote:
As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation."
|
Well, his absence from this discussion is therefore no great loss. Not that I contest his right to that opinion.
The extremists on the Muslim side of the fence hold the same views about Jews and Christians..probably. No one side is exclusively right or wrong.
|
I don't know about that Blackie. Christians and Jews don't go killing people for not being Christians and Jews.
The extremist Muslims hate us simply for what we are. They hate us for our culture, our lifestyle. They hate us for MTV, they hate us for Madonna kissing Britney on TV, they hate us for R&R (Prog too, I imagine), they hate us for pornography, they hate us for our tolerance toward gays.
The list goes on.
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No, generally Christians kill each other for being "the wrong type of Christan" (Northern Ireland anyone). The Crusades were also motivated by religion.
If that really was a view that The Doctor would take, then I would contest his right toahve that view as I believe no one has that right (I cant abide racists of any description).
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1695
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 11:37 |
Blacksword wrote:
James Lee wrote:
As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation."
|
Well, his absence from this discussion is therefore no great loss. Not that I contest his right to that opinion.
The extremists on the Muslim side of the fence hold the same views about Jews and Christians..probably. No one side is exclusively right or wrong.
|
I don't know about that Blackie. Christians and Jews don't go killing people for not being Christians and Jews.
The extremist Muslims hate us simply for what we are. They hate us for our culture, our lifestyle. They hate us for MTV, they hate us for Madonna kissing Britney on TV, they hate us for R&R (Prog too, I imagine), they hate us for pornography, they hate us for our tolerance toward gays.
The list goes on.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 05:20 |
James Lee wrote:
As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation."
|
Well, his absence from this discussion is therefore no great loss. Not that I contest his right to that opinion.
The extremists on the Muslim side of the fence hold the same views about Jews and Christians..probably. No one side is exclusively right or wrong.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 03:22 |
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As The Doctor is no longer with us, I'll imagine what he might have said:
"I have nothing personal against Muslims, individually or as a whole. I just think it would serve the greater good for them to be permanantly removed from the equation."
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 03:10 |
Resolution now tabled.
'Despite objections from Russia and China, the draft falls under 'Chapter 7' of the UN charter which allows for sanctions, and even military action'
This implies to me, that in the event that the US and the EU wish to pursue the military option, they will not need to seek a further resolution.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4970904.stm
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: May 03 2006 at 14:43 |
yeppp wrote:
Rock you like a hurricane
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Cry for the Nations...
MSG
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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yeppp
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 22 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 108
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Posted: May 03 2006 at 11:28 |
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Rock you like a hurricane
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: May 03 2006 at 05:38 |
^
The difference is, that Iran is the kind of insane fundamentalist country who would launch a pre-emptive attack on another country, breaking international law, whereas the US and the UK....oh ok I see what you mean..
Anyway, an update for whoevers interested. The US is calling for 'Tough sanctions' Tuesdays meeting between UNSC delegates ended without agreement. They shall meet again later in the week. Russia has told Iran that it is against sanctions of any kind, and the Iranian foreign minister has said the west wrongly assumes it can do anything it likes through the Security Council.
This is still not being mentioned on prime time news in the UK, in any detail. However if you listen to the BBc world service or BBC Radio 4 late at night the discussions are somewhat chilling...speculative, but chilling nonetheless.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4965264.stm
Edited by Blacksword - May 03 2006 at 05:39
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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saulman
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 12 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 14
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Posted: April 12 2006 at 15:41 |
I'm new here and here's my two penneth........
I'm from the UK and Tony Blair has just announced that nuclear power for electricity purposes is still on the agenda. That makes me embarassed that we should be telling another country not to develop it.
With regards to nuclear weapons, we have them. Once again, how can we tell someone not to develop them when we have them. It's like telling someone not to smoke whilst lighting up.
Also, Iran has the USA occupying countries to the left and right of it so it's no wonder they feel threatened.
And why the hell didn't we (and the USA) use this sort of 'diplomacy' when India and Pakistan were developing nukes and on the brink of war? No oil, perhaps?
This whole episode stinks. Like Iraq.
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If you don't want to come down......don't go up!!!
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: April 11 2006 at 13:08 |
Iran has just announced they enriched Uranium (low grade 3%) for the first time. Washington has described this as a 'Step in the wrong direction'
Uranium needs enriching to 80% for weapons use.
Well done Iran! 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4900260.stm
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: April 11 2006 at 07:56 |
I was afraid of that...
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Iran Crisis
