Prog & Punk - Connection??

When one considers that the punk movement signalled the death of Prog rock, in the eyes of many, it seems odd that so many Prog fans speak highly of some punk bands. Indeed, they speak highly of the movement and what it stood for.

I once heard Phil Collins say something like, 'Punk needed to happen. It was like someone violently shaking a tree and all the dead wood falling out. The dead wood took the form of a load of hippies with their hammond organs, and Genesis were among them, which I thought was unfair, because we had more to offer than bands like Yes'

Personally speaking, although I grew up with metal and prog I have a lot of time for The Stranglers, Siouxsie & the banshees, Killing Joke among others, and it seems other contributors do too.

What was it like in 1977, I'm too young to really know  Was their any real antipathy between the two genres. Did proggers appreciate punk at the time?? Or is it a partly nostalgic thing, that has made us look back and re-appraise it??

 

EVO:

'The page can not be found', but I think I remember the Cardiacs (Is this the life? Great tune, and yes, quite prog)

Let me suggest a few ideas . Hawkwind, admired by the likes of Pete Shelly (Buzzcocks) and members of the Stranglers, and cited as perhaps the first 'punk' band. The Hawks were percieved to be anti-establishment, and songs like Urban Guerilla, Death Trap had punk energy and spirit.

From Bowie, to Peter Gabriel, to Peter Hammil, the wierdness and often sinister edge to these performers in their hayday, could have been the inspiration for performers like, Jaz Coleman (Killing Joke) Andrew Eldritch (Sisters of Mercy) Pete Murphy (Bauhaus)

 

Early IQ and Twelfth Night albums got a big deal of punk-ish and gothic-ish stuff going on in their guitar riffs and solid rhythm patterns.

Oh, by the way, the lead singer in Dead Kenedys had Magma as one of his favourite rock bands ever. Not to mention Geordie's (Killing Joke guitarist) admiration for Fripp (though he didn't emulate him) and Jaz Coleman's (the lead singer and main writer) penchant for classic rock mosnters such as Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and Genesis. Besides, a former independent punk recording label in the 70s was called Epitaph, not as an alusion to death or destruction, but after that famous KC song.

 

Certif1ed wrote: I was a bit disappointed to find that it was just another pseudo-rock'n'roll number with lyrics that were only a bit funny the first few hearings. "The Great Rock'n'Roll Swindle" put it all into perspective - one of the big jokes is that it's a concept album. The concept is that it's all cheesey old rock'n'roll and rubbishy throw away music, but you bought it you sucker, and made the perpetrators a lot of money, even though they told you it was worthless junk. "Punk" means something worthless. Erk. I'm waffling again...

God Save the Waffles

Good call on the Motorhead spotting- they don't get the appreciation they deserve, here in the States at least, for beating most bands to the punch in both punk and metal arenas. I loved Lemmy's acting in "Eat the Rich" also

"Never Mind the Bollocks" has such a strange position in music. Though it is thought of as a defining album- the "Sgt. Pepper" of punk- it's not so much a sonic rejection of the mainstream as a media package of the already cliche punk image. It's also a disturbing precursor to the calculated pop and artsy self-conscious 'alternative' music that abounds now. The band themselves didn't take it seriously, and many of the 'real' punks made sure to make a distinction between Malcolm McLaren's boys and what the movement was really about. Mark E. Smith from The Fall (a true punk visionary) referred to the Pistols along with The Damned, and many other popular punk icons, in the same vein as Billy Idol; cheesy, glossy, metal-sounding pop music. Almost any other punk album is a better representation; The Clash's first album blows it out of the water, as does any Ramones album (well, maybe not the one that Phil Spector produced).

Too bad the safety pins and spiked hair clouded the issue- punk was in many ways a loving return to the visceral youth energy of rock's early years, and a genuinely powerful agent for social change in the days when most ex-hippies were either burned out on navel gazing or embracing consumerism with born-again desperation. It also levelled the field for people with more creativity than musical proficiency; a decade of amazingly unique and evocative statements came in its wake, though the best examples were far underground.

Those who say punk is 'unmusical' or 'anti-musical' are short-sighted; the movement was all about inspiring people to make music. Even if you had no technical skill (or video friendly appearance), you could get together with some friends and have a band. Neither Elvis nor the Beatles had any real claim to virtuosity, and yet they (and many other non-musicians) made a bigger contribution to music than all of our beloved Emersons, Wakemans, and Fripps. Music needs all hands on deck, not just the officers

Edited by James Lee

I definitely agree about Killing Joke and Siouxsie (and even The Cure in between "Boys Don't Cry" and "Head on the Door")- these were bands that could create a soundscape just as immersive as my favorite prog epics. Joy Division, Bauhaus (and Tones on Tail afterwards), Mission of Burma, Nomeansno, and many others can have the same sort of 'otherworldly' effect on me that prog has. And anyone who knows my tastes knows how highly I regard Sonic Youth (pre- "Goo") for their experimental punk-influenced atmospheres

I meant a crossover...

Joren wrote: I only accept some early punk (Ramones, Sex Pistols). That is just ordinary (RAW) rock 'n' roll, a little like AC/DC maybe. Punk, nowadays, is poppy and polished.

Totally!

"punk" nowadays is not worthy of the name. Punk was about the attitude first, and the music (supposedly) second - although I like most (proper) punk music.

Now it's just a term which defines a particular sound, which seems to have NOTHING in common with the punk I remember from 1976. Back then every major punk band sounded DIFFERENT to each other - I mean significantly different. The Damned are instantly recognisable, as are the Stranglers, the Clash, Sham 69, the Buzzcocks, Cockney Rejects, the Pistols, Siouxsie et al. Now "punk" means that you trot out three cheesey chords, wear "shorts" that go down to your ankles and have stupid looking spiky hair - and probably a skateboard.

BTW, did you know that Lemmy once played bass for the Damned? The only recording in circulation that I know of is a cover of the Sweet's "Ballroom Blitz" (a classic song and a classic 70s band if ever there was one!). The Damned could well be considered a Prog Punk band, IMO - they covered "Alone Again Or", by Love, and "History of the World" and "Smash It Up" part II are both very proggy in feeling. Irony?

I was never keen on the Fall - but it's not easy music to listen to, and I found it hard to find any value outside the aesthetic - which was not to my taste. The Clash did some good stuff, like Guns of Brixton, but overall I think they were overrated. They certainly led the way for an underground explosion of punk/reggae, which the Police made a career out of very quickly, and Here and Now (the Gong side band) produced some superb live performances (although the studio albums are a bit lacklustre in comparison).

My favourite of all the punk/reggae fusionists are Subhumans / Culture Shock / Citizen Fish (same band, essentially). They always wrote for the moment, so can sound a little dated - but the three Culture Shock albums are all timeless classics. Check them out if you like punk/reggae even slightly - they'll blow your mind!

http://www.citizenfish.com/

/edit - what the heck, check them out even if you don't like that sort of thing - it's punk - who cares?

Edited by Certif1ed

Joren wrote: You mean the Cardiacs? The songs I know from them are really funny and good!

One of my undergrad students introduced me to the Cardiacs (Kingston uponThames finest???) and I reciprocated with Porcupine Tree (and he quickly ended up with moreTree than me).  Eventually found Sing To God Part One  in a dumper bin in Andys Records locally, with that amazing track which I reckon is prog meets punk headon: Fiery Gun Hand.

Mind you as to the rest of the discussion, I think we done a lot of it before. Sex Pistols and Van der Graaf, Johnny Rotten Lyden being in to Can and applying for the position of lead singer, PIL's Flowers Album being Lyden does Can. Fripp, Hillage and Hammill on a Stranglers album. Siouxsie & The Banshees doing at least one psychedlic/underground album.  ETC.

the Who??

Hit the nail on the head there, James. Certif1ed, were you sitting next to me at school from '78 till '84 or something? It seems we've been at all the same festivals, and now have exactly the same perspective on punk. Great to see Here&Now get a mention. (any idea where I can get "Fantasy Shift", btw? I'm going mad trying.)

Every Hawkwind gig I've ever been to was packed with punks!

We can all deliberate on the validity of The 'Pistols' NMTB and TGR&RS till the cows come home, but trying to decide if it's deep social comment, cool as long as you're aware of the irony, or a double irony that means Lyden was taking the piss anyway, is futile and irrelevant. Just play the music. If it makes you wanna kick the cat whilst snearing with panache then it's done its job in my book.

My fave punk tracks are "The Day Before" and "The Ungovernable Farce" from "The Ungovernable Force", by Conflict. They mix thrash punk anarchy with concept album formats and a proggy attitude to arrangements. They have also recorded at the Enids studio, borrowing RJG's keyboards.

http://www.conflict.org.uk/music.cfm

ps. Punk Poetry? John Cooper Clarke's yer man.

Edited by emdiar