Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Hard Prog
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedHard Prog
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Peter View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 12:24
We already have too many very subjective, vague, even imaginary, "other genre-appropriating" categories.Stern Smile
 
Now we have yet another. Sigh.Ermm
 
It's all music, that's about all I know for sure. Music is patterns of sound, emotion -- words cannot "contain" or encapsulate it, or do it justice. Words, especially adjectives  like "hard," "soft " "good," "bad," "best" "worst" and "progressive" are very much open to interpretation.
 
I don't like the categorizing of art, except in the broadest possible ways. The more hair-splitting categories and sub-genres, the more subjectivity, confusion, and argument.
 
I like the way big record stores do it -- prog is just put in with rock, alphabetically. (You can decide what "category" each artist belongs in, and arrange/record/think of your collection accordingly.) I don't like others to do this labelling for me. It is not intuitive -- I would not think to find GG in "hard" prog, nor do I (yet) know what the term is meant to encompass. In my CD rack (close to 1200 discs), prog is in with rock/pop, and Gentle Giant is in with other "G" artists. (Between Genesis and Green day, as it happens.)
 
Art is not science. It needs you to experience it, let it have its effect, and make it "come to life," and you are different than me. Just as each of us is unique, so, strictly speaking, is each artist unique; thus I find the narrow categorizing of art to be very problematical, and a big source of disagreement.Thumbs Down


Edited by Peter Rideout - April 22 2006 at 12:40
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
Back to Top
M@X View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster

Joined: January 29 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 12:26
Suggestion: How about TAGGING album and bands ?

Like last.fm , flickr, technorati...

More about TAGGIN here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tags

Instead of categorizing : tagging .. ?


Edited by M@X - April 22 2006 at 12:26
Prog On !
Back to Top
parrymason View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Latvia
Status: Offline
Points: 49 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 12:27
"Dark Prog" is the best for VDGG, I think. But then again, everything can be fit into multiple categories.


Back to Top
Peter View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 12:37
Originally posted by parrymason parrymason wrote:

"Dark Prog" is the best for VDGG, I think. But then again, everything can be fit into multiple categories.
Yes!
 
Bands, albums and even individual songs can encompass mutiple, so-called "categories."
 
These categories use words (open to individual interpretation) to try to define and delineate something that is apart from and beyond words, and which "lives" mostly in the emotional realm.Ermm
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21495 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:22
Originally posted by M@X M@X wrote:

Suggestion: How about TAGGING album and bands ?

Like last.fm , flickr, technorati...

More about TAGGIN here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tags

Instead of categorizing : tagging .. ?
 
Please don't try to sell it as new, you rejected it 6 months ago.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - April 22 2006 at 13:25
2025 Monthly Release Poll

Listened to:
Back to Top
M@X View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster

Joined: January 29 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:27
Don't remember that ... Wacko

So I repeat my question as:


MikeEnRegalia 6 months old Suggestion: How about TAGGING album and bands ?

As last.fm , flickr, technorati...

More about TAGGIN here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tags

Instead of categorizing : tagging .. ?





Edited by M@X - April 22 2006 at 13:31
Prog On !
Back to Top
avestin View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 18 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 12625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:27
Originally posted by M@X M@X wrote:

Suggestion: How about TAGGING album and bands ?

Like last.fm , flickr, technorati...

More about TAGGIN here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tags

Instead of categorizing : tagging .. ?
 
It is the best solution. Who will be doing the tagging? The different specialist groups?
Hanging Sounds

PA Index of prog music vendors


Back to Top
M@X View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster

Joined: January 29 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:32
Why not ... ? or maybe all the members could do it , but Specialist Group could moderate them ?
Prog On !
Back to Top
M@X View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster

Joined: January 29 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:32
Mike , any suggestion here ?
Prog On !
Back to Top
oscar View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: January 11 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 74 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:33

    genres is difficult, not at least subgenres in prog
Life is PROGRESSIVE
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21495 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:34
Originally posted by M@X M@X wrote:

Mike , any suggestion here ?
 
I like the idea, but I think it would be better to just add a genre selection for albums in addition to the genre selection for bands.
 
Tagging is nice, but also kind of chaotic. It might end up with some albums tagged as half a dozen categories ...
 
2025 Monthly Release Poll

Listened to:
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21495 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:36
Another thing: Switching to tagging would mean MAJOR changes to the archives artist/album pages ... I don't think that's necessary, they're fine as they are. Adding genre selction for albums only requires minor changes to the database, and the album interfaces. Then the collabs can move the albums.
2025 Monthly Release Poll

Listened to:
Back to Top
M@X View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster

Joined: January 29 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:37
Dont you think that well have to add a lot of new GENRE for album ?

Ex: Pop, Alternative, Death Metal , Dance, ... ?


Tagging could solve the problem ? Only most used tag could be displayed ..

more comments please, this discussion is interesting... Thumbs Up


Edited by M@X - April 22 2006 at 13:37
Prog On !
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21495 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:47
Originally posted by M@X M@X wrote:

Dont you think that well have to add a lot of new GENRE for album ?

Ex: Pop, Alternative, Death Metal , Dance, ... ?


Tagging could solve the problem ? Only most used tag could be displayed ..

more comments please, this discussion is interesting... Thumbs Up
 
I use such an approach on my website - let all users determine a genre for an album, and the system displays the most used one. It's nice, but when you look at the results (www.ratingfreak.com) you see that it can end in chaos unless you really have MANY votes.
 
Also, it would be a rather abrupt change from a expert-controlled system to a completely democratic system.
 
About the genres: I guess you are talking about how to deal with the non-prog parts of the discographies. IMO the solution to that problem is simple:
 
Add a genre "non-prog". Those albums would definitely not be displayed on the front page. We can then always choose to add other genres later ... I know you want to be inclusive, but this should remain a prog website.Smile
2025 Monthly Release Poll

Listened to:
Back to Top
avestin View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 18 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 12625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:54
I have not knowledge whatsoever in programming so I don't know what would be harder to implement. I agree with Mike on the non prog issue. I also think the specialist groups should handle the classifications into genres, otherwise it would be too chaotic (unless someone knows better and has an example to the contrary).
Hanging Sounds

PA Index of prog music vendors


Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:55
Mike wrote:
Quote
Add a genre "non-prog". Those albums would definitely not be displayed on the front page. We can then always choose to add other genres later ... I know you want to be inclusive, but this should remain a prog website.Smile
 
Well, I feel more comfortable deleting all those albums we (as a group) believe are non Prog. like We Can't Dance (Genesis) BIG Generator (Yes), Vynil Confessions (Kansas), etc.
 
Leaving the bands clean from a Prog' perspective.
 
Iván
            
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21495 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 13:57
The problem with genre classification is that we all have slightly different definitions of genres. It's most apparent with this new "Hard Prog Rock" thing. If we would leave the classification to all members we would end up with many votes that technically aren't valid/reasonable because the voter had something completely different in mind than what the genre really means (by the definition).
2025 Monthly Release Poll

Listened to:
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21495 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 14:00
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Mike wrote:
Quote
Add a genre "non-prog". Those albums would definitely not be displayed on the front page. We can then always choose to add other genres later ... I know you want to be inclusive, but this should remain a prog website.Smile
 
Well, I feel more comfortable deleting all those albums we (as a group) believe are non Prog. like We Can't Dance (Genesis) BIG Generator (Yes), Vynil Confessions (Kansas), etc.
 
Leaving the bands clean from a Prog' perspective.
 
Iván
 
 
The problem is that then people would constantly try to add these albums, as the discography isn't complete, or ask why album xyz isn't there. No, I think the artist pages would be more useful if it clearly tells the visitor which parts of the discography we think is progressive. This would also settle MANY problems with the prog related bands, for example if we categorized the first few Deep Purple albums as PRoto-Prog, and the rest as Non-Prog.
 
Remember: Non-Prog albums could still be reviewed, but would not be shown on the front page.
2025 Monthly Release Poll

Listened to:
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 14:05
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Mike wrote:
Quote
Add a genre "non-prog". Those albums would definitely not be displayed on the front page. We can then always choose to add other genres later ... I know you want to be inclusive, but this should remain a prog website.Smile
 
Well, I feel more comfortable deleting all those albums we (as a group) believe are non Prog. like We Can't Dance (Genesis) BIG Generator (Yes), Vynil Confessions (Kansas), etc.
 
Leaving the bands clean from a Prog' perspective.
 
Iván
 
 
The problem is that then people would constantly try to add these albums, as the discography isn't complete, or ask why album xyz isn't there. No, I think the artist pages would be more useful if it clearly tells the visitor which parts of the discography we think is progressive. This would also settle MANY problems with the prog related bands, for example if we categorized the first few Deep Purple albums as PRoto-Prog, and the rest as Non-Prog.
 
Remember: Non-Prog albums could still be reviewed, but would not be shown on the front page.
 
Mike sometimes radical solutions are better, if the people designed by the site to decide that an album goes no more, it goes no more!!!!!
 
Sounds Draconian, but M@x or the Adm block the albums, and that's all Folks, the album doesn't come back.
 
Iván
            
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2006 at 14:07
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Mike wrote:
Quote
Add a genre "non-prog". Those albums would definitely not be displayed on the front page. We can then always choose to add other genres later ... I know you want to be inclusive, but this should remain a prog website.Smile
 
Well, I feel more comfortable deleting all those albums we (as a group) believe are non Prog. like We Can't Dance (Genesis) BIG Generator (Yes), Vynil Confessions (Kansas), etc.
 
Leaving the bands clean from a Prog' perspective.
 
Iván
Well as part of a group,I say Big Gen stays.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.250 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.