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PROGMAN 
Forum Senior Member 
VIP Member Joined: February 03 2004 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 2664 |
 Posted: April 07 2006 at 07:05 |
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Mike I like the idea of a Proto Prog Metal genre I would recommend that. It would make more sense to narrow the Progressive Metal genre, like Nightwish some say "Nightwish are not Prog2, even an old a one time friend said "Nightwish can't be considered Prog because of the Keyboard", so maybe a Prog Metal Releted Genre can be introduced to make that more specific. Here some suggestions I thought of: Proto Prog Metal - as Mike says bands like Metallica, Megadeth etc, the first bands that pioneered this genre. Proto Prog Rock: I like the Proto Prog genre as it is but if they changed it could be this, but I think it's OK as it is now (Proto Prog). Prog Related needs more clarification so sub Prog Related genres are needed IMO, but it least we know with this genre it's not true Prog in a sense. Here is some suggestions for that: Prog Art Rock Related Prog Metel Related Prog AOR/Pop Related Alternative Prog Related?? Progressive Tendencies - bands that are not Prog at all, little bit related to Prog but Prog/Progressive elements are composed. (but I think this genre would not work, but unsure!!) any views on these topics??
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CYMRU AM BYTH
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
Posted: April 07 2006 at 07:24 |
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I think that it would not be wise to include "Prog Metal Related" bands ... as much as I'd love to see bands like Nevermore in the archives, I fear that it would create too much confusion as to why they're here. The decision whether something is prog or not is difficult and subjective enough ... "prog related" is even harder to define, more general, less specific and more subjective.
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: February 10 2006 Location: Belize Status: Offline Points: 5308 |
Posted: April 07 2006 at 08:04 |
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Mike, will Katatonia ever come back to the archives? -- Ivan |
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Seyo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 08 2004 Location: Bosnia Status: Offline Points: 1320 |
Posted: April 07 2006 at 19:01 |
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How come this is still not clear? "Proto-" means "earlier in time", "before". So Proto-prog is early roots before the terms "prog" or "art" rock appeared. Basically, period 1966-69. Prog-related as I understand can be any period, any genre which is not "true prog" but has certain elements common with prog. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
Posted: April 08 2006 at 04:25 |
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I don't know, Ivan. I wasn't involved in their addition, nor in their removal. I did ask for them to be removed though, shortly after they had been added. Katatonia are a perfect example of the problem that I am trying to talk about in this thread. If only people took the time to read the posts and think about it instead of patronizing me/us, reminding that prog related means from any time period ... ok, then give us another solution of how to limit the number of prog related additions without making irrational decisions. Back to Katatonia: For me the certainly can be called prog related. They're not prog, but have played with many prog elements on their albums. When we discussed the prog-related genre many months ago, the initial motivation for having such a genre at all was that M@x wanted more visitors for the website ... more specifically: Visitors who don't know prog, but might like it once they got to know it. With that in mind: Why wouldn't Katatonia be a perfect band for achieving that goal? A good question indeed ... the main reason for my rejecting them a couple of months ago was that other bands had been rejected as prog related too, which I considered to be less progressive even than Katatonia. So I was trying to be consistent. But the more prog related bands we have, the more difficult it will be to explain to visitors why band X is here, but band Y isn't. |
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006 Location: Belize Status: Offline Points: 5308 |
Posted: April 08 2006 at 09:47 |
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Well, I think Viva Emptiness(amazing album)and the latest have some prog influences, sounding like Opeth, Porcupine Tree and Tool at times. Their first two full-lengths had Dan Swano on keyboards and have some moments of avant-gardish kind of Doom Metal. Mikael Akerfeldt did vocals from Brave Murder Day too. I think one of the reasons Steve Vai was added was that he had played with prog musicians. So did Katatonia! -- Ivan |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
Posted: April 08 2006 at 12:11 |
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No, not really. It was because he plays progressive stuff! But I know that people have a problem with prog in "unusual places" ... they're simply not flexable! |
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Bryan
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 01 2004 Status: Offline Points: 3013 |
Posted: April 09 2006 at 20:00 |
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Viva Emptiness and their latest one are about as straightforward as metal gets... all simple, verse/chorus/verse, standard sounding alt-metal. Very good mind you, but not prog in any way. I would be quite disappointed if Katatonia were brought back, I really feel they have no place on here (regardless of Dan Swano and Mikael Akerfeldt's minor contributions to the band). |
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2004 Location: So Cal, USA Status: Offline Points: 4338 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 17:09 |
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Mike
Look at the genre as defined on the genre page. It is limited to bands between 66-69. We debated this 6-7 months ago in the collaborators page.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 17:37 |
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^ that only applies to proto-prog. In this thread I try to discuss whether a metal band like Nevermore (1990s/2000s) can be added as prog-related, or if it generally makes sense to also limit prog-related ... to the 60s/70s, when classic prog was most popular/active.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - April 21 2006 at 17:37 |
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2004 Location: So Cal, USA Status: Offline Points: 4338 |
Posted: April 21 2006 at 19:33 |
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Well the quote I took from you was about proto-prog.
 I helped write the prog-related definition but I stay away from it to tell the truth.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: April 26 2006 at 03:23 |
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Peraonally I don't have a problem with adding any of those bands as Proto-Prog metal - in fact, I'm still very confused as to why people (generally) seem so blinkered about their important contributions. |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
Posted: April 26 2006 at 03:30 |
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Cert,
I agree with you - on my website I rated Metallica - Master of Puppets as a progressive album. I also think that these bands deserve to be here, but people are not going to understand it. The genre assignment needs to be moved to the album level, so we can add Metallica without implying that St. Anger or Load are prog.
And adding Metallica would open the door to many more metal inclusions ... where does it end?
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: May 05 2006 at 07:50 |
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I know you agree Mike - as you say, most people here simply don't understand it - they don't "get" where the prog is - just like I don't get where it is with some bands that are here (no names!). It's the wide variety of opinions on what Prog is that gets surprising bands into the archives. To deny Metallica's progginess is one set of closed ears, but to deny their progressiveness (literally), and prog related/proto-prog metal status seems like blind prejudice to me. ...And Justice for All 
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006 Location: Belize Status: Offline Points: 5308 |
Posted: May 05 2006 at 08:24 |
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I have the same reason for not wanting to see Metallica in the archives as I have with Cradle Of Filth: they may be progressive, proggy or prog-related enough, but they are not GOOD enough.
Of course, that, like you say, is a prejudice and I don't deny it!
-- Ivan
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
Posted: May 05 2006 at 08:54 |
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What do you mean by "not good enough" - are you saying that we should only accept good bands? Edited by MikeEnRegalia - May 05 2006 at 08:54 |
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: May 05 2006 at 09:52 |
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There is no such thing as "progressive" rock as a definable, clearly-delineated genre (living, or otherwise), let alone "prog related" or "proto prog."
It's all arbitrary, and VERY subjective -- the individual listener decides which artists belong together in his or her collection, or on home-made compilation discs.
You will NEVER get anything remotely approaching consensus on such matters of the categorization of art -- "quality" and "meaning" lie within the audience member, not the art.
The more categories, the more confusion and endless argument. Except in the broadest ways, art resists categorization, and mere words (always open to interpretation) do not define it or "contain" it.  Edited by Peter Rideout - May 05 2006 at 09:57 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
Posted: May 05 2006 at 10:22 |
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On my website I created a list of attributes which you can assign to the album. I think that this is the best way to categorize music, although I'm not yet sure that I've determined the best set of attributes.
The big advantage of this approach is that these attributes are all much more descriptive and self-explanatory than genre labels. |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: May 05 2006 at 10:25 |
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I cannot understand why those people who dont like the labels dont just IGNORE them.
There are thousands of everday things that get on my nerves,but those things I cannot cure with extreme violence,I just IGNORE!!
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MegaMoog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 22 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 112 |
Posted: May 05 2006 at 10:34 |
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It is hard to say, I would like to, but bands like yes still release new music which I do not like and rick wakeman has the retro album which I consider classic Prog so for me as always Prog is a sound not a style therefore adding a ablum b/c it is long or talks about space does not make it prog. look we all know what really prog is stop trying to get every CD in your case on the web page, its ok there are other web pages that talk about them everyday. We all know about those ablums we just chose not to talk about them here. here Prog #1
Edited by MegaMoog - May 05 2006 at 10:43 |
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Proto/Related ... only for 70s?
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ivansfr0st wrote: