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Chris S
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Topic: Sabbath and Zeppelin Posted: April 06 2006 at 14:36 |
I love this site, my most visited web domain. I love the difference of opinion and above all the progressive leniency towards " non stereotype prog bands" being included. Can someone authoritative on PA please explain how we can have ELO and Deep Purple here but no Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin?
This topic has been debated ad nauseum but I would really like someone high up on PA to explain my question above? It smacks of major contradictions. I mean it's incredible we even have early Beatles on here which is the most non prog music around!! Of course ' Double White' confirmed their overall inclusion.
Thanks in advance
Edited by Chris Stacey
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Tony Fisher
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 30 2005
Location: England
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Points: 967
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Posted: April 06 2006 at 14:57 |
Black Sabbath and Led Zepp are great bands but not prog in any shape or form IMHO.
ELO and Deep Purple did try some new ideas and are near enough to be classed as prog related.
The Beatles aren't prog but their experiments with psychadelia may qualify as proto prog.
Edited by Tony Fisher
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captainbeyond
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 05 2005
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Points: 84
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Posted: April 06 2006 at 15:06 |
ELO: extended compositions involving classical motifs off-time signatures instrumental virtuosity. These are all frequent hallmarks (although not the only hallmarks) of "prog."
Deep Purple: I probably would not categorize them as prog but I'm guessing the fact that most of the band had at least some classical training (especially Jon Lord), which popped up from time to time, and their level of instrumental skill (a bit higher than Zep's and significantly higher than Sabb's) probably nudge slightly into the realm of "prog."
Don't get me wrong: Sabbath is undoubtedly the fathers of metal and one of my all-time faves while Zep has as good of a claim as any as "the greatest rock band ever." A claim I might even support.
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Bt-Tor
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Joined: November 13 2005
Location: Canada
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Posted: April 06 2006 at 15:19 |
I've always considered Black Sabbath to be quite progressive songs, in fact the album Sabotage is pretty progressive as a whole with songs like Symptom of the Universe (also a great metal song), Megalomania, Supertzar and The Writ. Other progressive songs in their repertoire include War Pigs, Behind the Wall of Sleep suite, A Bit of Finger suite, Hand of Doom, Wheels of Confusion, Killing Yourself to Live, A National Acrobat, Gypsy, Dirty Women, Air Dance, Heaven and Hell, Sign of the Southern Cross, among others.
Led Zepplin have also had many progressive moments, Stairway(obvious), Achilles Last Stand (great intros and outros), In My Time of Dying(in fact most of Physical Graffiti), No Quarter, In The Light, Carouselambra, but I've always associated Led Zepplin as more of a classic rock/blues/folk band. I don't know... definitely progressive moments but thats just the feeling I get when I think of Zeppelin. I suppose the same can be said for Sabbath, in the sense that they are just a hard-rock/blues/metal band...
But I would support either band since I believe they both have a significant amount of progressive material.
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captainbeyond
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Points: 84
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Posted: April 06 2006 at 15:32 |
Bt-Tor, you've listed some fantastic songs but you'd have to elucidate to us how any of them are progressive in the ELP sense. God bless Sabbath but most of the tracks you mentioned are awesome heavy rock rock tracks with jams stuck at the end of them. Kind of like "Freebird." I love almost all of them but I don't (yet?) see anything prog in them. As for Zep, the epic sweep of Achilles comes closest. Perhaps the Staiways of the world reach beyond standard verse/chorus song structure but I'm not certain that automatically makes them "prog" in the way it tends to be understood. Perhaps it's that none of the individual sections are particularly progressive, nor are the bridges between them. Lastly, it's not part of a larger prog context in the way "Time" is within Dark Side.
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Zac M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 03 2005
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Points: 3577
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Posted: April 06 2006 at 15:54 |
Chris Stacey wrote:
I love this site, my most visited web domain.
I love the difference of opinion and above all the progressive leniency
towards " non stereotype prog bands" being included. Can someone
authoritative on PA please explain how we can have ELO and Deep
Purple here but no Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin?
This topic has been debated ad nauseum but I would really like
someone high up on PA to explain my question above? It smacks of major
contradictions. I mean it's incredible we even have early Beatles on
here which is the most non prog music around!! Of course ' Double
White' confirmed their overall inclusion.
Thanks in advance |
Chris, check the collab zone for more information.
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"Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression."
-Merleau-Ponty
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PROGMAN
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 03 2004
Location: Wales
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Points: 2664
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Posted: April 06 2006 at 16:55 |
Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, Progressive elements are not one off IMO, they seem to appear on several albums with both Zeppelin and Sabbath, I would like them to be added, even other prog site do feature Sabbath and Zeppelin, but in a sense not Prog in standards of VDGG, Geneses, ELP etc but more away from that direction.
However Sabbath have many changes throughout their tracks (like two or three tracks in one song), experimentation, the song "Planet Caravan" is definetely Prog IMO, so is the Sabotage and Technical Ecstasy album, but Master of Reality and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath too as well.
Led Zeppelin especially in the later albums do have more Progressive elements in their LPs the earlier ones don't seem to as much.
If they did they'd probably go under Prog Related as they are not a proper Prog bands but they do have Progressive tendencies in most of their albums.
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CYMRU AM BYTH
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Posted: April 06 2006 at 16:56 |
That's quite simple: it's because "progressive" is a vague, highly subjective notion, and because different people will react differently to a given piece of art.
Art and language are open to interpretation. Until we all agree as to just what "progressive" is (and we never will), it is pointless to say "this is pretty progressive," or "that song is progressive" as if you were offering convincing evidence, or stating verifiable fact. All such statements are mere unsubstantiated opinion, and the "discussion" or "argument" merely becomes a pointless exercise in contradiction.
Edited by Peter Rideout
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Chris S
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Joined: June 09 2004
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Posted: April 06 2006 at 18:17 |
captainbeyond wrote:
Deep Purple: I probably would not categorize them as prog but I'm guessing the fact that most of the band had at least some classical training (especially Jon Lord), which popped up from time to time, and their level of instrumental skill (a bit higher than Zep's and significantly higher than Sabb's) probably nudge slightly into the realm of "prog."
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Deep Purple have more instrumental skill than Led Zeppelin? Sorry my friend I would have to disagree on that count.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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