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Topic ClosedWhich is best - vinyl or CD ?
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 08:12

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

It destroys your musical experience?
That's not odd, that's digital!

You should become a politician, oliver! You're great at misinterpreting and wrong quoting.

BTW: Nice picture in your sig!
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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 08:23
Thanks for the comment about my sig.
Nice collage indeed.

You said that digital artifacts -make worse by over compression- sometimes destroyed your musical exp, that's it?
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 08:29

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Thanks for the comment about my sig.
Nice collage indeed.

You said that digital artifacts -make worse by over compression- sometimes destroyed your musical exp, that's it?

Yes ... but only sometimes. It depends on many factors:

  • How much compression (128, 192, 256, etc.)
  • The system you play it on
  • The mood you're in
  • The environment (noises)
  • ...

If I had to answer the question "does lossy compression (wma, mp3, ogg, etc) destroy your listening experience?" without any "buts" or "ifs", my answer would be:

No.

 
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marktheshark View Drop Down
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Points: 1695 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 11:04
I'm a little new on the mp3s. So what's better for sound? The higher bit rates like 256 and 320, or the lower like 128 and 192? And does the bit rate matter when converting mp3s to standard CD? In other words, does a 320 kps mp3 sound the same as 128 kps mp3 when converted to a CD?
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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 11:53
The higher the compression, the worst the sound.
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marktheshark View Drop Down
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Points: 1695 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 12:39
So a higher kps means more compression?
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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 12:53
It seems. Mike will confirm.
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marktheshark View Drop Down
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Points: 1695 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 13:04
I downloaded an album that had 2 tracks at 320 kps and the rest at 192. To me the 320 tracks sounded better, more fuller than the others.
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 13:55
Originally posted by marktheshark marktheshark wrote:

So a higher kps means more compression?


No ... the less kbps, the higher the compression. Real CD audio (uncompressed) has approx. 1,500 kbps, and standard mp3 has only 128kbps. This means that it has been compressed to less than 10% of the original size. So of course much of the original data is lost. If you use 256kbps instead of 128kbps much less of the data is lost, and the quality of the audio is much closer to the original.

BTW: Lossless formats manage to shrink most signals to 60% of the original size ... that would be approx. 800 kbps.
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marktheshark View Drop Down
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Points: 1695 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 14:37
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


Originally posted by marktheshark marktheshark wrote:

So a higher kps means more compression?
No ... the less kbps, the higher the compression. Real CD audio (uncompressed) has approx. 1,500 kbps, and standard mp3 has only 128kbps. This means that it has been compressed to less than 10% of the original size. So of course much of the original data is lost. If you use 256kbps instead of 128kbps much less of the data is lost, and the quality of the audio is much closer to the original.BTW: Lossless formats manage to shrink most signals to 60% of the original size ... that would be approx. 800 kbps.

Ok, I think I got a jist of what you're saying except for your last statement. What do you mean by lossless formats?

When you convert mp3s to real audio CD, do you retain the lost information back to 1500 kps? Or is the information lost completely?
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 17:01
^ when a track is converted to mp3, the information is lost ... converting it back to CD of course can't magically restore the lost information. In essence, converting something to mp3 means simplifying it.

About the lossless formats: These compress the audio like a ZIP-File ... no information is lost, and all of the original data can be restored. Popular lossless formats are: Apple Lossless, WMA Lossless, FLAC. The only drawback of these formats is that most mobile players don't support them ... and of course that they aren't as effective as the lossy formats (meaning: the files are not as small).
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marktheshark View Drop Down
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Points: 1695 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 17:05
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ when a track is converted to mp3, the information is lost ... converting it back to CD of course can't magically restore the lost information. In essence, converting something to mp3 means simplifying it.About the lossless formats: These compress the audio like a ZIP-File ... no information is lost, and all of the original data can be restored. Popular lossless formats are: Apple Lossless, WMA Lossless, FLAC. The only drawback of these formats is that most mobile players don't support them ... and of course that they aren't as effective as the lossy formats (meaning: the files are not as small).

Ok, I got you. So with WMA, you're getting more of the true sound of the original CD then with an mp3. Thanks.
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 17:16
^ with WMA Lossless. There is also a lossy WMA compression (WMA 64, 128 etc.).
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marktheshark View Drop Down
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Points: 1695 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 17:34
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ with WMA Lossless. There is also a lossy WMA compression (WMA 64, 128 etc.).

How can you tell which one you have?
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 17:57
^ look at it (open it in a media player, it shows the format info/bitrate).
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Tony Fisher View Drop Down
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Points: 967 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 18:19
Vinyl - CDs are not even close.

BUT - to hear vinyl at its best you need to spend a great deal of money on a top class set up. This preserves the discs and lets you hear them as they were recorded. 180g pressings help as well.

I use a Pink Triangle Anniversary + SME V + Lyra Lydian.

Cost £4300. Value priceless!
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marktheshark View Drop Down
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Points: 1695 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 18:34
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ look at it (open it in a media player, it shows the format info/bitrate).

You think they could make it anymore confusing with all these formats?

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 18:52
yes, I agree that it's getting too complicated.
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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Points: 6308 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2006 at 01:27
Originally posted by Tony Fisher Tony Fisher wrote:

Vinyl - CDs are not even close.BUT - to hear vinyl at its best you need to spend a great deal of money on a top class set up. This preserves the discs and lets you hear them as they were recorded. 180g pressings help as well.I use a Pink Triangle Anniversary + SME V + Lyra Lydian.Cost £4300. Value priceless!


Happy to hear that.
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goose View Drop Down
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Points: 4097 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2006 at 19:34
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Popular lossless formats are: Apple Lossless, WMA Lossless, FLAC. The only drawback of these formats is that most mobile players don't support them .
I don't know that that's entirely true any more... presumably iPods do support Apple Lossless? It's also possible, although fiddly to overwrite the firmware on a whole lot of devices and get FLAC support. Not that I'd recommend that to anyone, because it will more than likely void the warranty and if you're really that desperate for lossless audio on the move there are much easier options!
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