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micky 
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46838
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 Posted: March 25 2006 at 17:39 |
 hawkbrock wrote:
Read my previous post please. |
hahahah that assumes that anyone is trying to win..... most of us, just
like to hear the sound of our own voices and argue for the fun of it
and understand that prog is what you make of it, and it all really
comes down to taste and preference.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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hawkbrock
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Joined: January 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 96
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 16:40 |
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Read my previous post please.
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RoboVampire
Forum Newbie
Joined: November 12 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 16:33 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
RoboVampire wrote:
The reason Immortal Technique is brought up is more due to the his position as a completely social/political/economic rapper then any innovation or new ideas for hip-hop. Mainstream hip-hop has been completely out of balance for some time, and Immortal Technique provides the polar opposite to that, whether you agree or disagree with him. It has become so one sided to club/party anthems in mainstream hip-hop that having any message in the underground will get noticed. Immortal Techniquue actually is really well known in most hip-hop circles, he sells 10s of thousands of albums. IT is also not regarded as a proficient MC but more having a message without the skills and talent to back it up most of the time. Immortal Technique's major success in the underground is more of an extreme reaction to the nature of whats commericially available. Overreaction I believe. In my opinion Immortal Technique's "You Never Know" and "Dance with the Devil" are demonstrations of what he does bests, weaving stories without the abrasive commentary. Dance with the Devil you might consider too violent but "You Never Know" is one of the most touching songs I have ever heard. |
It's not the probem if I agree or disagree wiyth him, he's talking BS about Perú his site is full of lies.
I live here, he doesn't, why such a Revolutionary guy choose the comfort and freedom of USA istead of a Communist paradise?
He escaped from criminal Terrorists who killed, not politicians, not opinion leaders, not rich guys, but killed 25,000 peasents who refused to give them their children for the so called popular war and raped their women because they refused to support them with their only cow.
It's easy to talk and write protected by the First Ammendment in favour of Pol Potian Terrrorists who want to destroy all traces of freedom and civilization.b And of course making profit of it.
Iván
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And I most likely completely agree. The songs I like are free of his radical politics. His politics are why I barely listen to many of his other tracks. I'm just making an observation why he appears on lists of "underground" rappers, in comparison to others such as Del who have massive sci-fi concepts or MF Doom rapping about cartoons, or more jazz based artists.
On a side note, I have recently read translations of some of Clorinda Matto de Turner for the Peruvian section of class. Though we have moved on to the post-Perón era of Argentina, and some critical evaluations of Marti/Castro/Guevara poltics, I have to say it was an interesting topic. The comparison of era literature to factual sources provides some great insight into the events of the time. I'd just like to hear someone who actually lives their comment on it.
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hawkbrock
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Joined: January 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 96
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 16:07 |
To win an interned-based argument is like winning the paralympics. at the end of the day, you are still a retard... 
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listennow801
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Joined: January 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1819
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 15:20 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
ivan_2068 wrote:
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Maybe the solution would be adding only the relevant albums (From a Progressive Rock perspective) to this site, even when it could mean deleting 60 or 70% of The Beatles and around 30% of Genesis.
Iván
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Thank you for your acknowledgment of the legitimacy of my mistake: very just of you.
-----
Hey, I think I like that idea! [E.G., I would be MORE than happy to eliminate Genesis' latter pop garbage, which, imo, they should be ashamed of anyway - considering where they came from that is. I'm a hard core lover of Gabriel era Genesis, and I'm ashamed to admit it sometimes when I know their latter work is all that will occur to a lot of peoples' minds.]
re: Kansas. Well, To each ... I hate them, think it's pop-rock garbage, and it's simply my taste v.s. yours, which you have every right to, so I shan't bother to argue :) How can one, really, argue taste anyway as it's utterly subjective?
For good US prog [latter day of course], have you heard Thinking Plague? Now that's quality... imho....
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Ratings of Lady Gnosis: http://www.gnosis2000.net/raterclaire.shtml
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 15:15 |
FragileDT wrote:
To "Dojonane":
Listen. I have made many attempts to listen to rap that is good and well
written and I have yet to see the day. Many of my friends listen to rap
(underground) and have showed me albums and I just find most of the
lyrical content bland and/or offensive. I know their COULD be and
probably IS rap with good lyrics I still cannot see the level of innovation
that rap could create in comparison to more intelligent forms of music.
I also don't think it's fair for you to talk down to Ivan and everyone else as
if you are someone of higher authority. It seems to me that you're looking
up words on a thesaurus and writing run on sentences of ramble.
"come off it already, don't fix a thing that isnt broken...your martyr to the
cause of disvalidating an entire cultural and artistic movement married to
your staunch remission of its original forebearers social plight PILED
ONTOP OF your inability to see how this pertains completely to why the
ideal of the sample served to heal and uplift a disenfranchised people just
makes your argument reek more and more of some kind of totalitarian
1984 brave new world style iron fisted monarchy deeming certain modes
of expression benign and others as enemies of the state."
^ That's only ONE sentence?
I'm just saying this because your tone of voice is talking down upon the
people in this forum without even saying anything negative (taking away
the negative comments towards Ivan.) You are acting like you are of
higher authority and we are all young children waiting to be enlightened. |
Fragile, it's obvious, nobody uses this kind of language in normal life, let the guy have a minute of glory.
Don't piss yourself, ignore this comments. We've been here for a lot of time and we've seen many similar cases, most don't last because it must be boring to search for the most complex words in a dictionary.
With all this language he's trying to emphasize his arguments and make them more convincing, but at the end he has convinced nobody.
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 14:53 |
listennow801 wrote:
listennow801 wrote:
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Lord! Obviously! I stated in that post that I had written it wrong! I wrote in that post 'I mistakenly typed "aka" when I meant "w/"' - read it! Acknowledgment. And it misses the point anyway/that fact has nothing to do w/ what I was saying, and does not alter the gist of the example. So I went back and edited the mistake, so what? Isn't that what editing is for? You might consider trying it yourself sometime: that is, your posts are full of typos & misspellings, so why is someone else's some kind of crime?
I give you that one. I answered before I read all your post edition, a mistake can be made by anrybody, I have a lot of spelling problems.
and: re your second point above: I do thoroughly agree on that one, I must say! I was just ranting the other day to a forum friend how I couldn't believe how they deigned to name certain bands prog here. Bands, I would snobbishly say, that no self respecting true prog head would ever sully the genre of prog with [corporate rock more like it Kansas]. "A few prog-ish elements doesn't = prog in my book. It has made me wonder about this site a bit [or is it another prog site?]. The Beatles are NOT a prog band. IMHO, doing some progish albums does not a prog band make. [Purist!?]". Nonetheless, I think it's probably inevitable that non-prog bands are going to come up in any music conversation eventually [that is, in one that's supposed to be specific & non-inclusive of such music].
I partially agree, except for Kansas, which IMO is the finest expression of USA Prog, and the only band able blend (with great success) Symphonic Prog, Hard Rock and Country influences, and one of the few that dared to leave keyboards in a second plane to priviledge violin as their trademark.
About The Beatles, I share some of your doubts, but to be consistent, Beatles were a Psychedelic band during a period of their career plus Proto Prog' at least in Abbey Road (IMO an underrated album in comparisobn with Sgt Peppers). But still have my doubts as you.
The problem is that according to the politic of this site, if a band has a 100% Prog album is enough to add them, The Beatles had at least a 100% Psyche album (Sgt Peppers) and a 100% Proto Prog album (Abbey Road), they can be included.
But this could also mean we have to add Rolling Stones because of Their Satanic Majesties Request or The Who because of Quadrophenia.
Maybe the solution would be adding only the relevant albums (From a Progressive Rock perspective) to this site, even when it could mean deleting 60 or 70% of The Beatles and around 30% of Genesis.
Iván
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Edited by ivan_2068
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Arsillus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 26 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7374
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 14:17 |
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What's the big deal? I think it's pretty cool that dude sampled GG.
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listennow801
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1819
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 14:06 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
listennow801 wrote:
Hey pal, read your first line, Trevor Hoirn abnd Trevor Rabin are two different opersons, start there.
listennow801 wrote: [quote]and FYI: a link between hip hop & prog: Trevor Horn [aka Trevor Rabin - he was a member of New Wave band The Buggles], |
Of course taken from my quote, because you edited your post to cover this aberration 
And I'm not umpleasent, I only hate that our forum is loosing credibility because of non Prog bands beoing added, and this hip hop thing comes from long time ago, I believe Rap and Hip Hop have nothing to do here.
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Lord! Obviously! I stated in that post that I had written it wrong! I wrote in that post 'I mistakenly typed "aka" when I meant "w/"' - read it! Acknowledgment. And it misses the point anyway/that fact has nothing to do w/ what I was saying, and does not alter the gist of the example. So I went back and edited the mistake, so what? Isn't that what editing is for? You might consider trying it yourself sometime: that is, your posts are full of typos & misspellings, so why is someone else's some kind of crime?
and: re your second point above: I do thoroughly agree on that one, I must say! I was just ranting the other day to a forum friend how I couldn't believe how they deigned to name certain bands prog here. Bands, I would snobbishly say, that no self respecting true prog head would ever sully the genre of prog with [corporate rock more like it Kansas]. "A few prog-ish elements doesn't = prog in my book. It has made me wonder about this site a bit [or is it another prog site?]. The Beatles are NOT a prog band. IMHO, doing some progish albums does not a prog band make. [Purist!?]". Nonetheless, I think it's probably inevitable that non-prog bands are going to come up in any music conversation eventually [that is, in one that's supposed to be specific & non-inclusive of such music].
Cleo
Edited by listennow801
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Ratings of Lady Gnosis: http://www.gnosis2000.net/raterclaire.shtml
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 13:55 |
RoboVampire wrote:
The reason Immortal Technique is brought up is more due to the his position as a completely social/political/economic rapper then any innovation or new ideas for hip-hop. Mainstream hip-hop has been completely out of balance for some time, and Immortal Technique provides the polar opposite to that, whether you agree or disagree with him. It has become so one sided to club/party anthems in mainstream hip-hop that having any message in the underground will get noticed. Immortal Techniquue actually is really well known in most hip-hop circles, he sells 10s of thousands of albums. IT is also not regarded as a proficient MC but more having a message without the skills and talent to back it up most of the time. Immortal Technique's major success in the underground is more of an extreme reaction to the nature of whats commericially available. Overreaction I believe.
In my opinion Immortal Technique's "You Never Know" and "Dance with the Devil" are demonstrations of what he does bests, weaving stories without the abrasive commentary. Dance with the Devil you might consider too violent but "You Never Know" is one of the most touching songs I have ever heard. |
It's not the probem if I agree or disagree wiyth him, he's talking BS about Perú his site is full of lies.
I live here, he doesn't, why such a Revolutionary guy choose the comfort and freedom of USA istead of a Communist paradise?
He escaped from criminal Terrorists who killed, not politicians, not opinion leaders, not rich guys, but killed 25,000 peasents who refused to give them their children for the so called popular war and raped their women because they refused to support them with their only cow.
It's easy to talk and write protected by the First Ammendment in favour of Pol Potian Terrrorists who want to destroy all traces of freedom and civilization.b And of course making profit of it.
Iván
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hawkbrock
Forum Groupie
Joined: January 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 96
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 13:52 |
Yo Yo Yo! Check it out!
yo Yo yo check it out!
I like this hiphop stuff, its a peice of piss..
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BePinkTheater
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1381
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 13:50 |
So??
Who cares if he sampled that one riff....
It really doesn't matter at all
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I can strangle a canary in a tin can and it would be really original, but that wouldn't save it from sounding like utter sh*t.
-Stone Beard
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RoboVampire
Forum Newbie
Joined: November 12 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 13:23 |
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The reason Immortal Technique is brought up is more due to the his position as a completely social/political/economic rapper then any innovation or new ideas for hip-hop. Mainstream hip-hop has been completely out of balance for some time, and Immortal Technique provides the polar opposite to that, whether you agree or disagree with him. It has become so one sided to club/party anthems in mainstream hip-hop that having any message in the underground will get noticed. Immortal Techniquue actually is really well known in most hip-hop circles, he sells 10s of thousands of albums. IT is also not regarded as a proficient MC but more having a message without the skills and talent to back it up most of the time. Immortal Technique's major success in the underground is more of an extreme reaction to the nature of whats commericially available. Overreaction I believe.
In my opinion Immortal Technique's "You Never Know" and "Dance with the Devil" are demonstrations of what he does bests, weaving stories without the abrasive commentary. Dance with the Devil you might consider too violent but "You Never Know" is one of the most touching songs I have ever heard.
Edited by RoboVampire
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 13:17 |
listennow801 wrote:
Trevor Horn aka Trevor Rabin?????? Trevor Rabin member of The Buggles????
I mistakenly typed "aka" when I meant "w/"
Trevor Horn was only a Prog performer when he sung in Drama, there's no link beween him as a Prog performer and him as a Producer. |
I never said he was a performer, I said he was the producer.
This is all opinion i.e. subjective; to myself, and to many a excellent prog musician I know, AON is brilliant & was not a commercial venture. And, in fact, how the hell do you know what Horn's motives are/were?
Ps: is there a reason you're so unpleasant/nasty about everything? That is, not just stating/saying things, but always trying, or so it seems, to be insulting to every thing/one?
[/QUOTE]
Hey pal, read your first line, Trevor Hoirn abnd Trevor Rabin are two different opersons, start there.
listennow801 wrote:
| and FYI: a link between hip hop & prog: Trevor Horn [aka Trevor Rabin - he was a member of New Wave band The Buggles], |
Of course taken from my quote, because you edited your post to cover this aberration 
Then check the list of artists Trevor Horn Produced like Rod Stewart, Tina Charles among others, so his credibility is not very strong.
And I'm not umpleasent, I only hate that our forum is loosing credibility because of non Prog bands beoing added, and this hip hop thing comes from long time ago, I believe Rap and Hip Hop have nothing to do here.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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FragileDT
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: June 20 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1485
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 13:14 |
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To "Dojonane":
Listen. I have made many attempts to listen to rap that is good and well
written and I have yet to see the day. Many of my friends listen to rap
(underground) and have showed me albums and I just find most of the
lyrical content bland and/or offensive. I know their COULD be and
probably IS rap with good lyrics I still cannot see the level of innovation
that rap could create in comparison to more intelligent forms of music.
I also don't think it's fair for you to talk down to Ivan and everyone else as
if you are someone of higher authority. It seems to me that you're looking
up words on a thesaurus and writing run on sentences of ramble.
"come off it already, don't fix a thing that isnt broken...your martyr to the
cause of disvalidating an entire cultural and artistic movement married to
your staunch remission of its original forebearers social plight PILED
ONTOP OF your inability to see how this pertains completely to why the
ideal of the sample served to heal and uplift a disenfranchised people just
makes your argument reek more and more of some kind of totalitarian
1984 brave new world style iron fisted monarchy deeming certain modes
of expression benign and others as enemies of the state."
^ That's only ONE sentence?
I'm just saying this because your tone of voice is talking down upon the
people in this forum without even saying anything negative (taking away
the negative comments towards Ivan.) You are acting like you are of
higher authority and we are all young children waiting to be enlightened.
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One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity
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listennow801
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1819
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 13:09 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
[QUOTE=listennow801]
Trevor Horn aka Trevor Rabin?????? Trevor Rabin member of The Buggles????
I mistakenly typed "aka" when I meant "w/"
Trevor Horn was only a Prog performer when he sung in Drama, there's no link beween him as a Prog performer and him as a Producer. |
I never said he was a performer, I said he was the producer.
This is all opinion i.e. subjective; to myself, and to many a excellent prog musician I know, AON is brilliant & was not a commercial venture. And, in fact, how the hell do you know what Horn's motives are/were?
Ps: is there a reason you're so unpleasant/nasty about everything? That is, not just stating/saying things, but always trying, or so it seems, to be insulting to every thing/one?
Edited by listennow801
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Ratings of Lady Gnosis: http://www.gnosis2000.net/raterclaire.shtml
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 12:34 |
listennow801 wrote:
And: those folks who are judging the scene by its all pervasive examples evinced today should stop and think. I would say that I love much of the genre, but not most of whats available to my ears commercially today.
In my case I'm judging examples that are provided as great lyrics, not what's commercial availlable, as I said before it started when a few months ago somebody wrote here that Inmortal Technique (Who BTW is very underground and musical son of Chuck D member and mastermind of Pubil Enemy) had excellent music and lyrics, I heard his music and was the same, heard his lyrics about MY COUNTRY where I live and a place from which I didn't escaped, and it was a load of crap, he talked about Revolutions instead of massive genocide.
Don't blame us, blame those who provide the examples, and at the end as you well say all is profit and money, anger rage and violence sell, that's why they use it.
and FYI: a link between hip hop & prog: Trevor Horn [aka Trevor Rabin - he was a member of New Wave band The Buggles], who produced/formed Art Of Noise [another hip hop classic] also produced Yes' 90125 in '83 [and somehow miraculously succeeded in making a 70s prog band not sound like a bunch of dinosaurs - i.e.:dated].
Trevor Horn aka Trevor Rabin?????? Trevor Rabin member of The Buggles????
- Trevor Horn is English. born in 1949 and was vocalist and later Producer of some Yes most commercial music plus Asia.
- Trevor Rabin is from South Africa, born six years later, never was member or even related with The Buggles and was guitar player replacing Steve Howe.
Trevor Horn was only a Prog performer when he sung in Drama, there's no link beween him as a Prog performer and him as a Producer. This guy has produced anything that he believed could be profitavble, like Yes, Tina Charles (Yes, the one from I Love to Love), Frankie Goes to Hollywood, Barry Manilow, plus two Jones (Tom and Grace).
So I find no link, and BTW 90125 is IMHO the second worst album by Yes, 100% POP, lineup in which Trevor Horn was not a member, only Producer and co-author of just one track named Leave It.
Iván
Cleo |
Edited by ivan_2068
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:27 |
I don't care.
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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listennow801
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Joined: January 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1819
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:23 |
"The problem is that I find nothing challenging in Rap or Hip Hop, the lyrics ..."
hey, listen to some Public Enemy lyrics. The rebel of Henry Rollins in there, but a hell of a lot more powerful!
Edited by listennow801
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Ratings of Lady Gnosis: http://www.gnosis2000.net/raterclaire.shtml
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listennow801
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Joined: January 29 2006
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Points: 1819
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:20 |
oh my dears! Why don't we just throw the race card OUT? It is simply, imho, inapplicable. Having lived in NYC when this whole music/cultural phenomenon was coming into being in the early 80s, I can tell you it was NOT purely a black thang. at all. but more of an urban thang. AND some of the best music to come out of the scene then ['old school'] were collaborations between white & black: Run DMC & Rick Ruben such as King of Rock, Tom Tom Club and Grandmaster Flash Genius of Love, Malcolm Mclaren - absolute hip hop classics Buffalo Gals & Do you like scratchin'? [and this trend-master, a middle class white guy from London, came fresh from producing the Sex Pistols], or the Beasty Boys, George Clinton & Thomas Dolby ... [tho that's more pure funk...], hey and The Red Hot Chili Peppers in those days: very white boys!
And: those folks who are judging the scene by its all pervasive examples evinced today should stop and think. I would say that I love much of the genre, but not most of whats available to my ears commercially today. But give me a brake! Think! It's friggin' pop music [most of what one hears that is]! In my book, that generally equates w/- 0- quality. Its corporate & commercial, and artistic talent has, in most cases, nothing whatsoever to do with it. Its how friggin' "hot" you are that sells the most of the crap. And yes, I think a lot of it can legitimately be called s_ _ _. But that has NOTHING to do with the actual value of a lot of the work which resides under the rubric 'hip hop.' Its like comparing apples & oranges.
and FYI: a link between hip hop & prog: Trevor Horn [w/ Trevor Rabin] - he was a member of New Wave band The Buggles], who produced/formed Art Of Noise [another hip hop classic] also produced Yes' 90125 in '83 [and somehow miraculously succeeded in making a 70s prog band not sound like a bunch of dinosaurs - i.e.:dated].
Cleo
Edited by listennow801
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Ratings of Lady Gnosis: http://www.gnosis2000.net/raterclaire.shtml
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Gentle Giant HAS BEEN HIP-HOP SAMPLED!!!
