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Soulman View Drop Down
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Points: 290 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Soloing over Chords and stuff
    Posted: March 01 2006 at 01:03
Heyo,

I'm there's some superbly talented guitar people on this forum, or atleast some with more technical knowledge of music in general that could help me with this topic. I'm sure pianists, guitarists, bassists, trumpeters etc could help me on this one.

I just need some help in understanding how I can expand the melodic-ness of my improvising over chords, rather than having to just wank around the pentatonic scale, major or melodic/harmonic minors.

I feel like my improvising can become sort of stale, and anything "technical" i try to do sounds so obviously part of like a major or minor scale.

Help me guys! I wanna get good
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I shall live by those words all my life Jon
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Rising Force View Drop Down
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Points: 439 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 01:24
Ah, you're at about the same level as me.

Well, I dunno, just improvise. Try being creative. Throw in some half notes, quarter notes, etc. and some bends and stuff in there. Get to know your scales well, so you get a feeling of which notes sound good together. Improvise over some chords. Try learning licks from other guitarists.

Some of your improvising will sound like sh*t. But as my guitar teacher told me, "don't be afraid to f**k up".

I'm not worried about it. I'll get there eventually as long as I stick to it.








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tremulant View Drop Down
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Points: 143 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 01:28
Don't worry about  scale patterns too much, just listen to the chords being played and figure out all the notes and all their positions that sound good with them. Alot of people restrict themselves to just using the exact scales, you need to expand on that and play oustide the scales (not outside the key). To use a single pentatonic scale for a whole song (or even multiple songs) is a very non-progressive thing indeed.
Try to be origional and different; play notes throughout the whole neck, not just a single position. Scales are there to help you, they are not by any means a strict guideline on what you have to play in order to sound good.
Music is sound, not numbers.
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Lindsay Lohan View Drop Down
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Points: 3254 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 03:21

Never think of scales!

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krusty View Drop Down
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Points: 1777 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 06:37
^Weather you are aware of it or not you will always be using scales.
Why re-invent the wheel, all these scales were worked out centuries ago you may as well use the knowledge.

Maybe rather than just using "the pentatonic scale, major or melodic/harmonic minors"  you could try learning about modes of scales etc.
Check this program out http://www.guitarscalesmethod.com/
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Lindsay Lohan View Drop Down
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Points: 3254 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 07:04

Originally posted by krusty krusty wrote:

^Weather you are aware of it or not you will always be using scales.
Why re-invent the wheel, all these scales were worked out centuries ago you may as well use the knowledge.

Maybe rather than just using "the pentatonic scale, major or melodic/harmonic minors"  you could try learning about modes of scales etc.
Check this program out http://www.guitarscalesmethod.com/

Certain Jazz guitarists plays "outside" of scales but what i said is that you should not think about scales, what scale you use is non important what is important is if it sounds good or not!

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 07:16
^ scales are very important - don't dismiss them that easily. Every guitarist should know the modal scales and their typical sound. That doesn't mean that you have to use the scales when improvising all the time.
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Lindsay Lohan View Drop Down
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Points: 3254 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 07:20

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ scales are very important - don't dismiss them that easily. Every guitarist should know the modal scales and their typical sound. That doesn't mean that you have to use the scales when improvising all the time.

Certainly i used to practice alot on scales some years ago. Now i just make up my own "custom" scales wich is similar to the 8 most common ones but with a few notes here and there thrown in. I also try to play something that would not typically fit that certain Key but might sound a bit more "interesting"

Basically i make up all the chords and scales by my self although im sure they have a nice name to them

 



Edited by Lindsay Lohan
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Lindsay Lohan View Drop Down
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Points: 3254 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 07:39
Aeolian and Mixolydian mode is my current favs btw!
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Soulman View Drop Down
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Points: 290 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 11:36
Originally posted by krusty krusty wrote:

^Weather you are aware of it or not you will always be using scales.
Why re-invent the wheel, all these scales were worked out centuries ago you may as well use the knowledge.

Maybe rather than just using "the pentatonic scale, major or melodic/harmonic minors"  you could try learning about modes of scales etc.
Check this program out http://www.guitarscalesmethod.com/



Have you actually tried that program krusty?
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I shall live by those words all my life Jon
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Asyte2c00 View Drop Down
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Points: 2099 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 17:32

Music is what sounds good, its what is aesthetically pleasing.  i can recognize, whether its soloing or performing chord progressions what sounds good. 

I create melodies and rythyms then put them to guitar.  it seems to me certain notes engeneder aan "atmosphere" that others do not. 

I intened to post a few of my songs on the internent for ffeedback.  Im not a guitar virtuoso like Joh McGlaughlin, but i think any guitarist can get be good withou scales.

Can someone convince me otherwise?
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 17:37

Originally posted by Lindsay Lohan Lindsay Lohan wrote:

Aeolian and Mixolydian mode is my current favs btw!

I always prefered dorian ... and dominant phrygian (phrygian based on the harmonic minor scale as opposed to the natural minor scale). But mixolydian can sound really cool too, when used in unusual situations!
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Soulman View Drop Down
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Points: 290 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2006 at 19:26
Originally posted by Asyte2c00 Asyte2c00 wrote:

Music is what sounds good, its what is aesthetically pleasing.  i can recognize, whether its soloing or performing chord progressions what sounds good. 

I create melodies and rythyms then put them to guitar.  it seems to me certain notes engeneder aan "atmosphere" that others do not. 

I intened to post a few of my songs on the internent for ffeedback.  Im not a guitar virtuoso like Joh McGlaughlin, but i think any guitarist can get be good withou scales.

Can someone convince me otherwise?



Well really, scales and modes just give you more tools to understand the music. Definetely, a person could try memorizing certain patterns that work and become "good", in the opinion of others. But it all really depends on the ethic of the musician.

It's not so much that a musician should want to become good in the eyes of others, that'd be too easy, but then again difficult because you wouldn't be able to please everyone. I think you're most likely satisfied with how you play guitar, which is alright. Though for myself, I want to be able to understand the music and be able to conform to any musical styling easily.
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"Don't Kill the Whale, Dig it Dig it" - Jon Anderson

I shall live by those words all my life Jon
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krusty View Drop Down
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Points: 1777 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2006 at 04:43
Originally posted by Soulman Soulman wrote:

Originally posted by krusty krusty wrote:

^Weather you are aware of it or not you will always be using scales.
Why re-invent the wheel, all these scales were worked out centuries ago you may as well use the knowledge.

Maybe rather than just using "the pentatonic scale, major or melodic/harmonic minors"  you could try learning about modes of scales etc.
Check this program out http://www.guitarscalesmethod.com/



Have you actually tried that program krusty?


Yeah, I'm going through it now.
There's quite alot of theory in it which I wasn't going to bother with but I have now change my mind. I'm going to go through all the 'boring' bits as well.
On the practical side it has a load of pattern trainers for you to play alone with, which is what I use it for most of the time.
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2006 at 06:14

^ I always liked "Band in a Box" ... you can download a trial version at www.pgmusic.com. Then you can set up your own chord progressions and jam along.
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Yanns View Drop Down
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Points: 999 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2006 at 15:25

Quick rundown of the modes people are talking about here:

Ionian: Major Scale
Dorian: b3 and b7
Phrygian: b2, b3, b6, b7
Lydian: #4
Mixolydian: b7
Aeolian: b3, b6, b7 (the minor scale)
Locrian: b2, b3, b5, b6, b7

As for my favorite, it depends on the situation. For instance, I love jamming in Ab lydian, but I enjoy C locrian too, etc. etc.
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Soulman View Drop Down
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Points: 290 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2006 at 00:28
Are minor modes ever used much in like technical guitar music?
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"Don't Kill the Whale, Dig it Dig it" - Jon Anderson

I shall live by those words all my life Jon
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Zac M View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2006 at 01:36
I like Ionian.
"Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression."

-Merleau-Ponty
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cobb View Drop Down
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Points: 1149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2006 at 02:51
Playing lead is playing a melody. ie the guitar takes over from the vocal (if they are there). Singers usually know very little about scales, they just put something that sounds good over a series of chords. Any lead instrument should do the same. Sticking with scales and arpeggios will make it sound technically good, but it will make for a boring melody. As long as you know the 'distance' between any two notes in a given scale, you can play what you want. A fair percentage of those who can play exceptional lead do not know much about music theory (this is particularly the case with guitarists), but they can hear when any note sounds 'right'. Music theory, scale and arpeggio practice is important, but on the guitar, not that necessary for playing good lead, as long as you can hear when you play a wrong note. Just put on things that have common chord progressions and jam along. Getting together with other musicians will help greatly in learning how to jam, as well. The more you practice, the more you gain your own patterns and runs that work.

Edited by cobb
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kingofbizzare View Drop Down
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Points: 520 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2006 at 15:52
Originally posted by Yanns Yanns wrote:

Quick rundown of the modes people are talking about here:

Ionian: Major Scale
Dorian: b3 and b7
Phrygian: b2, b3, b6, b7
Lydian: #4
Mixolydian: b7
Aeolian: b3, b6, b7 (the minor scale)
Locrian: b2, b3, b5, b6, b7

As for my favorite, it depends on the situation. For instance, I love jamming in Ab lydian, but I enjoy C locrian too, etc. etc.

You can also think about them by which scale degree they start on. For exapple, take the C major scale. If you play the same scale, but begin on the second scale degree (D in this case), you now have the D Dorian scale. Mt personal favorite is the Locrian which begins on the 7th, giving it a very unstable quality.

(I'm so glad my high school offers music theory)
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