Gentle Giant HAS BEEN HIP-HOP SAMPLED!!!

BaldJean wrote: There may be inspiration, but they are nevertheless completely different. Not even a quotation. That composers have been influenced by other composers, no doubt, but there is quite a difference between citing (or in the case of the hip-hop version of Gentle Giant sampling) and influence.

Of course I agree with you, there's a difference, but it's somehow a precedent, i'm not sure if you or Friedre mentioned last week that Baroque musicians used to recreate other composers work but adding some of their own.

Just as an anecdote, the relation of Wagner's Bridal Chorus was because good old Richard  couldn't resist that his personal enemy's music was getting so popular, as a fact Mendelssohn's Weeding March was used for the first time by Dorothy Carew and Tom Daniel who married at St Peter’s Church,  UK in  1847.

So Wagner used more than just an inspiration of this march to create another one that could be used in weddings and still sound similar to Mendelssohn's version which was already popular, and he succeded partuially, because in Queen's Victoria's daughter wedding in 1858 boith marches were used, one at the entrance and one when the couple was already married, I can't say which one was used in what moment but I believe this happens today also.

There are even versions to be played to recieve the married couple in the party (We call it recepción in Spanish) that join both marches as one.

Iván

BaldJean wrote: The wedding march in "Lohengrin ("Treulich geführt", "Here comes the Bride") has nothing to do with the wedding march in Mendelsohn's "Mittsommernachtstraum". The first 4 notes of both marches are rhythmically (but not melodically) identical; there ends the similarity.

I'm listening in this moment Lohengrin Bridal horus "Treulich Gefürt" by the Choir and Orchestra of the Budapest State Opera conducted by Josif Conta and it's the clear and obviously inspired in the Wedding March credited by Meldelsshon and played in every ceremony since the mid 19 Century.

Despite Wagner's hate for Mendelssohn (due to his anti semitism), both marches are very related and even often played paired because both fit perfectly. I even read somewhere that during some period of time none of the wedding marches were played in Israel because of the obvious relation of both and Wagner's anti semitism and even when Mendelssohn was from the Jewish community.

Iván

And you're right about the classical music plundering of course, there was a thread about a week ago on Reneissance plundering some classical pieces without any credit and it went down promptly with only 10 or so responses, and maybe one of them was (slightly) critical. Snobbery is definitely the word.

Manunkind wrote: Tony R wrote: Manunkind wrote: Tony, you just had to post these things, didn't you? As if the GG sampling hasn't caused enough traumas here already.  I have no problems with these "tributes", to me if only 1 person discovers prog via listening to a sample in a piece from another genre then that is a good thing. True, but every time someone mentions any potential connection between prog and rap/hip-hop, your average proggie kills a kitten

Makes you glad to be associated with these open-minded people doesn't it!

I'd rather listen to Eminem than Magma anyday....

Manunkind wrote: Tony, you just had to post these things, didn't you? As if the GG sampling hasn't caused enough traumas here already.

I have no problems with these "tributes", to me if only 1 person discovers prog via listening to a sample in a piece from another genre then that is a good thing.

Prog artists have plundered Classical music for decades-I can guarantee you that many Classical Music officianados will resent this just as much as prog fans resent Rap and Hip Hop. There is a word for this: "snobbery"

Certif1ed wrote: erlenst wrote: Hierophant wrote: Can anyone verify that this is in fact Gentle Giant?!!??! And about the sampling argument - what about the mellotron, used by tons of prog bands that use SAMPLED sounds of strings and vocals Are you kidding me ? Of course it's Gentle Giant, it is one of their most well-known songs, Funny Ways. And come on, do you really think that you can compare sampling music with the mellotron ? It's a bit of an odd comparison, I'd agree... But sampling can be a very creative way of making music - you don't have to sample other people's music! For instance, as a formally trained composer myself, I have used sampling technology to dig into lengthy improvisations that I myself have made, and then use the samples to create collages of sound - indeed, new riffs that "feel" more "right" than some of the improvs. However, sampling other people can be profitable - Stockhausen made a career out of it...

Cert, sampling any other author is ok, even Wagner did that in Lohengrin (1850) with the Wedding March by Mendelssohn (1843) seven years after he used it in Midsummer's Night Dream.

But according to today's law and respect for intellectual property you have to:

1. Ask permission to the owner (Can be the author and/or publisher)
2. Pay the royalties
3. Quote the author's name.
4. Quote the original work from which is sampled.
5. Pay rights each time you play it on a concert (There's a general payment befoire any concert depending in the country).

None of the rap/hip hop samplers I seen act according to law.

Manunkind wrote:

Ivan, look: Karn Evil 9 wrote: Sampling music is stealing, and is not composing. Thus any artists who sample other people's music into their songs is not a musician, but a common theif. I get pissed off whenever I hear any band putting other musicians' music into their songs. I have to admit, it occurs most often in the rap/hip hop industry, but a great deal of rock artists do it as well. It enrages me when ever anyone steals a beat or a riff from another musician. For example, when MC hammer stole the music from Rick James' Super Freak to put into the song Cant Touch This, it pissed me off just as much as this article does. If an artist wants to make music, it should be origional. I dont even care about permission. Get your own musical voice before you dare call yourself a musician.   Seems KE9 thinks you're still a thief (or hardly better than one) even if you do ask for permission, give credit, etc. etc.

Well Manunkind, there are extremists always, recieving blood after an accident is necessary to save your life in some cases, but there's people that despite the blood is tested for AIDS and Hepatitis B refuse to recieve blood due to religious beliefs.

We all use samples during our lives. In my case when I use a closing argument in a case I read what other lawyers have to say about similar situations and even quote them as jurisprudence.

The whole Judiciary system of USA is based on precedents, so when a lawyer says I use the USA against Gideon, he's sampling.

When a medical docror creates a revolutionary method, all the surgeons in the world will use it. I don't imagine a patient whop needs heart transplant  asking to his doctor "Hey don't use Barnard's method, be original"

Going back to art, look at this names:

• Donatello (ca. 1430 - 1440)
• Andrea del Verrocchio (1476)
• Michelangelo Buonarroti (1504) 
• Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1624)
• Antonin Mercié (1873)

Each one mentions the year in which the artist made a statue of King David, but I don't imagine the Prior of the Florence Cathedral saying to Michelangelo, "Hey you, take this thing from my church because Donatello already did it"

Every one is a piece of art, and I'm sure all the authors checked the work of their predecessors and used something from their works, so in some way all except Donatello's are samplersr.

As long as you act according tom morality and legislation I don't see a problem.

Iván

BTW: I forgot that ELP didn't quoted Bartok and Janacek in the first album (Something strange after all the work that Keith Emerson took to obtain Ginastera's blessing for Tocatta) probably it was a mistake of the label responsibles, but this enforces my opinion, they had to do it, why should rappers and hip hoippers should be free to sample anybody without a mention?

NetsNJFan wrote: ^ but its important to remember that on their first album, they didn't credit the composers they borrowed music from (janacek and bartok), and were sued by their estates (since those were rather contemporary composers). only after those problems did they begin giving full credit to the composer.

 Beat me to it, Nets - and they admit it themselves in the sleevenotes to the CD reissue of the first album.