Gentle Giant HAS BEEN HIP-HOP SAMPLED!!!

Manunkind wrote: Tony, you just had to post these things, didn't you? As if the GG sampling hasn't caused enough traumas here already.

I have no problems with these "tributes", to me if only 1 person discovers prog via listening to a sample in a piece from another genre then that is a good thing.

Prog artists have plundered Classical music for decades-I can guarantee you that many Classical Music officianados will resent this just as much as prog fans resent Rap and Hip Hop. There is a word for this: "snobbery"

Manunkind wrote: Tony R wrote: Manunkind wrote: Tony, you just had to post these things, didn't you? As if the GG sampling hasn't caused enough traumas here already.  I have no problems with these "tributes", to me if only 1 person discovers prog via listening to a sample in a piece from another genre then that is a good thing. True, but every time someone mentions any potential connection between prog and rap/hip-hop, your average proggie kills a kitten

Makes you glad to be associated with these open-minded people doesn't it!

I'd rather listen to Eminem than Magma anyday....

And you're right about the classical music plundering of course, there was a thread about a week ago on Reneissance plundering some classical pieces without any credit and it went down promptly with only 10 or so responses, and maybe one of them was (slightly) critical. Snobbery is definitely the word.

BaldJean wrote: The wedding march in "Lohengrin ("Treulich geführt", "Here comes the Bride") has nothing to do with the wedding march in Mendelsohn's "Mittsommernachtstraum". The first 4 notes of both marches are rhythmically (but not melodically) identical; there ends the similarity.

I'm listening in this moment Lohengrin Bridal horus "Treulich Gefürt" by the Choir and Orchestra of the Budapest State Opera conducted by Josif Conta and it's the clear and obviously inspired in the Wedding March credited by Meldelsshon and played in every ceremony since the mid 19 Century.

Despite Wagner's hate for Mendelssohn (due to his anti semitism), both marches are very related and even often played paired because both fit perfectly. I even read somewhere that during some period of time none of the wedding marches were played in Israel because of the obvious relation of both and Wagner's anti semitism and even when Mendelssohn was from the Jewish community.

Iván

BaldJean wrote: There may be inspiration, but they are nevertheless completely different. Not even a quotation. That composers have been influenced by other composers, no doubt, but there is quite a difference between citing (or in the case of the hip-hop version of Gentle Giant sampling) and influence.

Of course I agree with you, there's a difference, but it's somehow a precedent, i'm not sure if you or Friedre mentioned last week that Baroque musicians used to recreate other composers work but adding some of their own.

Just as an anecdote, the relation of Wagner's Bridal Chorus was because good old Richard  couldn't resist that his personal enemy's music was getting so popular, as a fact Mendelssohn's Weeding March was used for the first time by Dorothy Carew and Tom Daniel who married at St Peter’s Church,  UK in  1847.

So Wagner used more than just an inspiration of this march to create another one that could be used in weddings and still sound similar to Mendelssohn's version which was already popular, and he succeded partuially, because in Queen's Victoria's daughter wedding in 1858 boith marches were used, one at the entrance and one when the couple was already married, I can't say which one was used in what moment but I believe this happens today also.

There are even versions to be played to recieve the married couple in the party (We call it recepción in Spanish) that join both marches as one.

Iván

Certif1ed wrote: I don't know exactly how far the law extends - but I believe that the limit is 7 seconds before a sample becomes illegal - and 7 seconds is a very long time in terms of riffs.

I agree with most of your post, but there's a problem here,  I believed it was a certain number of chords required to be a copy (INDECOPI -Peruvian Office of Copyrights- once decided using acertain number of bars) but according to USA legal info, it's only required to use a couple of chords or seconds of a song in which the essennce of the original work relies on those few seconds: 

5. IS IT OK TO USE A SMALL PIECE OF SOMEBODY ELSE'S MUSIC IN MY SONG? The obvious answer is yes, if you first obtain permission from the copyright owner. Obtaining permission first is usually the best (though not always the easiest) solution. There is no simple rule concerning how much of a work may be taken before it rises to the level of infringement. Obviously, the more a work is copied, the easier it is to show substantial similarity. Ultimately the test for infringement turns on the issue of quality, rather than quantity. For instance, in determining whether one song infringes on another, it is common for courts to look to whether the "heart" of the song was taken. The heart of a song may be a memorable melody, or an identifiable 2-chord guitar riff or just a few words taken from the chorus. As a result, there is NO truth to the rumor that sampling less than 4 bars is OK. http://www.alankorn.com/articles/copyright_infringe.html (I'm mentioning the origin and the quote is for critical purpose, so it's not infringement  )

In other words, the judge's subjectivity plays an important role, if he believes that the second author used an essential piece of another song, then his word is law and you must pay, there's an example with George Harrison that some of you may know because I'm not familiar with:

One of the more famous U.S music infringement cases involved ex-Beatle George Harrison, who was found by a jury to have "unconsciously" copied the Shirelle's composition "He's So Fine" in his 1971 hit "My Sweet Lord." Although George Harrison's hit was found to be strikingly similar to the Shirelle's song, it is even possible to infringe another song if only just a few notes are "borrowed." Because the most memorable part of a song may be quite brief, infringement of a musical composition may be found even where only a small portion of a song was copied. http://www.alankorn.com/articles/copyright_infringe.

I don't know Shirele's song so maybe you could answer that Cert.

Certified wrote:

I know that Madonna paid ABBA a large sum of money for the sample she used in her recent hit - although I cringed like mad when I heard it, as I like ABBA and am not ashamed to admit it!

THAT'S MY POINT, if you want to sampler, it's ok, but ask permission, quote the author, quote the original song's name and pay the price, if not, even if you are Madonna you must pay.

If this guy asked Gentle Giant for permission it's ok, but if not, well it's a felony.

You should remember the Scissor Sisters version of Comfortably Numb, I hate it, it's like a bad Bee Gees style copy (They should have asked authorization of the Bee Gees also ), but I'm sure they paid Pink Floyd part of their profits (Don't know why they accepted with all the money they have), so it's ok, despite how horrendous is the new version it's legal and it must be accepted by everybody, if you don't like it, don't buy it.

Iván