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Viajero Astral
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 16 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3118
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:19 |
But this is a big and complete ENCYCLOPEDIA of Progresive Rock, so I dont see the problem to put The Beatles here, and as a Proto-Prog band, of course that it is necessary to clarify that they are not prog rock, but that those bands just help to create Progresive Rock.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:20 |
One thought-please,we do not want to see any Beatles protest reviews on the front page.
I neednt remind people here of how the front page is sacrosanct and our reviews need to be of the highest standard possible.
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Manunkind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 2373
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:20 |
Greg W wrote:
Manunkind wrote:
Greg W wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Manunkind wrote:
TheProgtologist wrote:
Greg W wrote:
eugene wrote:
When I suddenly discovered this site, it was like finding hidden treasure for me. Lots of very interesting bands I have never heard of, entertaining discussions on the forums about commonly little known stuff. I was offered by this site a lot of information about very obscure but extremely talented bands and musicians. I thought that the purpose of this site is to tell those who is interested to hear something more about hidden treasures of progressive music. When a friend was asking me about some unknown band, I would tell him or her to check ProgArchives, as the probability is high that the band is listed there if they are playing good music but not very popular or heard of on about every corner.
This site was bearing some elitist features, very much to my likings, and I could find here a lot of interesting info that I could not find anywhere else.
Now IMO site is changing it's direction and tries to cover each and every possible rock/jazz and pop groups of all ages and origines. It is flooded by huge number of all sorts of metal bands, hard & heavy, AOR and rock'n'roll, country and folk, electronics and EMO, dancing music and pop, jazz, avant-guarde, chanson, world/ethnic music - anything and everything - you name it, plus still very good portion of prog.
This site is getting huge and growing by the day, but "huge" is not always (maybe never)synonymous to "great", and I personally is rapidly loosing interest in this site. (Yes, I realise, this is MY problem)
Don't get me wrong, Queen where my favourite band when I was 14-15 years old, I was fanatical about Deep Purple, Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin in my late teens, in my 20's I was Heavy Metal fan. Beatles to me were always one of very important bands in development and world-wide recognition of rock music in general, and to me their music is not bad - just uninteresting. I still listen to the music of above bands occasionally, and I like what I hear. I firmly believe that in every musical genre there are great musician capable to produce masterpieces, but this was not about this site to list all of them here.
This site probably will become biggest encyclopedia of music in the world, and it's name will be changed to something more appropriate in this respect, and I wish all good luck to the founders of the site and to collabs in achieving this goal, but this will never be same ProgArchives it used to be for me.
To me it's like once a small and cozy club, where intelligent people were gathering to consume some rare, expensive, highest quality drinks and to exchange their opinions and impressions they got from it, this club suddenly turned into a huge drunk parlour crowded by people consuming vodka by wine glasses and trying to shout down each other in stupid debate as to who can drink more.
Sad, isn't it?
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I agree. This is an elitist site who welcomes people with only the most mature music in rock history. By including Prog Related and Proto Prog, we have essentially invited the unruly commoners to pillage our fair site with their stupidity and ignorance.
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That is the most elitist,snobbish comment I have read yet.
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Probably also one of the most ironic ones.
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I don't think he (Greg W) was joking.
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I wasn't joking. It goes with the territory. Tell me how many times you hear a song on the radio and think it is absolute rubbish? What is worse is when witnessing someone who is enjoying the stupidity that is playing on the radio or a dance club. Tell me you just aren't a tad nauseated by the whole experience? We are all music elitists. We demand better, and there is nothing wrong with admitting you have better tastes in music than the masses. Trust me, they won't agree with you, but we know better.
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I enjoy music by people like Cecil Taylor, Ornette Coleman, Gyorgi Ligeti, Iannis Xenakis etc. Damn, how noble I am because of this, Jesus and Buddha don't dare untie my shoelaces.
But that is beside the point.
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...and I like Carly Simon and many of the singer/songwriters, but here we must keep a closed mind and stick our noses up in the air...
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... so that we can sniff the butts of more elevated artists, such as the people I've mentioned. There is some truth to what you say, but I have no intention of changing my opinions and tastes together with the monicker I go under and the image I'm associated with every time I log into PA.
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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:22 |
Beatles are here? oh,dear,what a(nother) low point in Prog Archives consolidation...
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altaeria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2004
Location: Philadelphia
Status: Offline
Points: 178
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:23 |
Actually... Maybe the site needs to emphasize including individual ALBUM entries --- not so much entire BAND catalogs.
Here are some examples:
QUADROPHENIA by The Who ... has a variety of prog elements ... and therefore qualifies as "Progressive" (and I personally would recommend it to any Progressive ROCK fan).
IT'S HARD by The Who ... IS NOT progressive and doesn't get listed.
THE GRAND ILLUSION by Styx, considered by many to be pop/prog ... does have many classic prog elements ... and so it qualifies as "Progressive".
CORNERSTONE by Styx ... not prog.
ABBEY ROAD by the Beatles... like it or not -- it does have some obvious prog elements ... so it stays.
A HARD DAY'S NIGHT ... nope ... it goes.
Then... Maybe set up an online survey system (through the forum) for any new Album Requests that are considered "borderline"... and let the majority decide what makes the cut.
Just a suggestion... or the basic idea behind a suggestion ... or maybe more of a premise to consider. Whatever. Quadrophenia should be in.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21206
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:25 |
sleeper wrote:
I think we are all elitists (I know I am) but to that extent? I look to prog because its were the cream of the crop has gone but to ignore one band because "its not prog" is stupid and bigoted.
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I'd like to think that I am not an elitist at all. Sure - in our own mind we all judge music, separating the good from the bad. But that is not the point. An elitist/snob claims that his judgement is more valid than that of others. Those who agree are part of a group of enlightened geniuses, the others are stupid morons.
I am not like that.
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Greg W
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:28 |
Tony R wrote:
One thought-please,we do not want to see any Beatles protest reviews on the front page.
I neednt remind people here of how the front page is sacrosanct and our reviews need to be of the highest standard possible.
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I would never do such a thing and agree with Tony on this. No Beatles are not prog reviews. If I were to write a review on the Beatles, it would probably be a good review...at least 3 stars with the caution that they are proto-prog.
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Greg W
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:34 |
sleeper wrote:
Greg W wrote:
TheProgtologist wrote:
Greg W wrote:
eugene wrote:
When I suddenly discovered this site, it was like finding hidden treasure for me. Lots of very interesting bands I have never heard of, entertaining discussions on the forums about commonly little known stuff. I was offered by this site a lot of information about very obscure but extremely talented bands and musicians. I thought that the purpose of this site is to tell those who is interested to hear something more about hidden treasures of progressive music. When a friend was asking me about some unknown band, I would tell him or her to check ProgArchives, as the probability is high that the band is listed there if they are playing good music but not very popular or heard of on about every corner.
This site was bearing some elitist features, very much to my likings, and I could find here a lot of interesting info that I could not find anywhere else.
Now IMO site is changing it's direction and tries to cover each and every possible rock/jazz and pop groups of all ages and origines. It is flooded by huge number of all sorts of metal bands, hard & heavy, AOR and rock'n'roll, country and folk, electronics and EMO, dancing music and pop, jazz, avant-guarde, chanson, world/ethnic music - anything and everything - you name it, plus still very good portion of prog.
This site is getting huge and growing by the day, but "huge" is not always (maybe never)synonymous to "great", and I personally is rapidly loosing interest in this site. (Yes, I realise, this is MY problem)
Don't get me wrong, Queen where my favourite band when I was 14-15 years old, I was fanatical about Deep Purple, Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin in my late teens, in my 20's I was Heavy Metal fan. Beatles to me were always one of very important bands in development and world-wide recognition of rock music in general, and to me their music is not bad - just uninteresting. I still listen to the music of above bands occasionally, and I like what I hear. I firmly believe that in every musical genre there are great musician capable to produce masterpieces, but this was not about this site to list all of them here.
This site probably will become biggest encyclopedia of music in the world, and it's name will be changed to something more appropriate in this respect, and I wish all good luck to the founders of the site and to collabs in achieving this goal, but this will never be same ProgArchives it used to be for me.
To me it's like once a small and cozy club, where intelligent people were gathering to consume some rare, expensive, highest quality drinks and to exchange their opinions and impressions they got from it, this club suddenly turned into a huge drunk parlour crowded by people consuming vodka by wine glasses and trying to shout down each other in stupid debate as to who can drink more.
Sad, isn't it?
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I agree. This is an elitist site who welcomes people with only the most mature music in rock history. By including Prog Related and Proto Prog, we have essentially invited the unruly commoners to pillage our fair site with their stupidity and ignorance.
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That is the most elitist,snobbish comment I have read yet.
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Yes...when it comes to music I am an elitist and whether you admit it or not...so are you. That is why we are all here...isn't it?
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I think we are all elitists (I know I am) but to that extent? I look to prog because its were the cream of the crop has gone but to ignore one band because "its not prog" is stupid and bigoted.
Yes I am also aware that you like The Beatles and you have stated that they were progressive in the true sence of the word but so were Yes, Genesis, Floyd, Tull, etc etc. We know that prog NOW has a complete felling to it so that bands that arnt doing something completely new ae still prog because it feels that way. Besides if your saying that Proto-prog should go do you include The Nice, Moody Blue's and others in that as well?
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The Moody Blues....not sure? Borderline really. I would probably supplant them in a different catagory, perhaps Space/Psychedelia or Art Rock.
The Nice..I haven't heard them.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:38 |
The Nice are definitely Proto-Prog.
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Greg W
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:39 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
sleeper wrote:
I think we are all elitists (I know I am) but to that extent? I look to prog because its were the cream of the crop has gone but to ignore one band because "its not prog" is stupid and bigoted.
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I'd like to think that I am not an elitist at all. Sure - in our own mind we all judge music, separating the good from the bad. But that is not the point. An elitist/snob claims that his judgement is more valid than that of others. Those who agree are part of a group of enlightened geniuses, the others are stupid morons.
I am not like that.
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In real life I would hope not, but are you altogether sure you are being honest to yourself about your music tastes as opposed to other peoples. I know many intelligent people with bad music tastes. Rejoice, you are one of the enlightened ones? Seriously!!
If you thought I was calling people stupid or moronic then I apologize. I just thinkthe common person's taste in music is stupid and moronic.
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Heptade
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 19 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 427
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:42 |
It appears that via the proto-prog and prog-related categories, the people
who run things here are being clear that they want to expand the horizons
of the site beyond the hardcore genres of prog.
They run the place, so be it...but it will lead to the front page being clogged
with endless reviews from Beatles fanatics, of whom there are a lot. Even
more than Genesis and Yes freaks. If I see another Close to the Edge review,
I"m gonna barf!
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The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning
And all the rest is just bullsh*t
-Steve Kilbey
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MorgothSunshine
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 03 2005
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 298
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:42 |
I completely desagree! Here the Beatles centrano like cavoli a merenda!
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For every truth even the contrary is true...
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Greg W
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:42 |
Manunkind wrote:
Greg W wrote:
Manunkind wrote:
Greg W wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Manunkind wrote:
TheProgtologist wrote:
Greg W wrote:
eugene wrote:
When I suddenly discovered this site, it was like finding hidden treasure for me. Lots of very interesting bands I have never heard of, entertaining discussions on the forums about commonly little known stuff. I was offered by this site a lot of information about very obscure but extremely talented bands and musicians. I thought that the purpose of this site is to tell those who is interested to hear something more about hidden treasures of progressive music. When a friend was asking me about some unknown band, I would tell him or her to check ProgArchives, as the probability is high that the band is listed there if they are playing good music but not very popular or heard of on about every corner.
This site was bearing some elitist features, very much to my likings, and I could find here a lot of interesting info that I could not find anywhere else.
Now IMO site is changing it's direction and tries to cover each and every possible rock/jazz and pop groups of all ages and origines. It is flooded by huge number of all sorts of metal bands, hard & heavy, AOR and rock'n'roll, country and folk, electronics and EMO, dancing music and pop, jazz, avant-guarde, chanson, world/ethnic music - anything and everything - you name it, plus still very good portion of prog.
This site is getting huge and growing by the day, but "huge" is not always (maybe never)synonymous to "great", and I personally is rapidly loosing interest in this site. (Yes, I realise, this is MY problem)
Don't get me wrong, Queen where my favourite band when I was 14-15 years old, I was fanatical about Deep Purple, Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin in my late teens, in my 20's I was Heavy Metal fan. Beatles to me were always one of very important bands in development and world-wide recognition of rock music in general, and to me their music is not bad - just uninteresting. I still listen to the music of above bands occasionally, and I like what I hear. I firmly believe that in every musical genre there are great musician capable to produce masterpieces, but this was not about this site to list all of them here.
This site probably will become biggest encyclopedia of music in the world, and it's name will be changed to something more appropriate in this respect, and I wish all good luck to the founders of the site and to collabs in achieving this goal, but this will never be same ProgArchives it used to be for me.
To me it's like once a small and cozy club, where intelligent people were gathering to consume some rare, expensive, highest quality drinks and to exchange their opinions and impressions they got from it, this club suddenly turned into a huge drunk parlour crowded by people consuming vodka by wine glasses and trying to shout down each other in stupid debate as to who can drink more.
Sad, isn't it?
|
I agree. This is an elitist site who welcomes people with only the most mature music in rock history. By including Prog Related and Proto Prog, we have essentially invited the unruly commoners to pillage our fair site with their stupidity and ignorance.
|
That is the most elitist,snobbish comment I have read yet.
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Probably also one of the most ironic ones.
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I don't think he (Greg W) was joking.
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I wasn't joking. It goes with the territory. Tell me how many times you hear a song on the radio and think it is absolute rubbish? What is worse is when witnessing someone who is enjoying the stupidity that is playing on the radio or a dance club. Tell me you just aren't a tad nauseated by the whole experience? We are all music elitists. We demand better, and there is nothing wrong with admitting you have better tastes in music than the masses. Trust me, they won't agree with you, but we know better.
|
I enjoy music by people like Cecil Taylor, Ornette Coleman, Gyorgi Ligeti, Iannis Xenakis etc. Damn, how noble I am because of this, Jesus and Buddha don't dare untie my shoelaces.
But that is beside the point.
|
...and I like Carly Simon and many of the singer/songwriters, but here we must keep a closed mind and stick our noses up in the air...
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... so that we can sniff the butts of more elevated artists, such as the people I've mentioned. There is some truth to what you say, but I have no intention of changing my opinions and tastes together with the monicker I go under and the image I'm associated with every time I log into PA.
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No one is asking you to. But, when I log into here I expect to read about Prog Rock...not the Beatles, Queen, Deep Purple and such....
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Heptade
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 19 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 427
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:42 |
Oh great, I'm demoted to newbie for the 5th time...is it because I'm using a
Mac or something?
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The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning
And all the rest is just bullsh*t
-Steve Kilbey
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Greg W
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:43 |
altaeria wrote:
Actually... Maybe the site needs to emphasize including individual ALBUM entries --- not so much entire BAND catalogs.
Here are some examples:
QUADROPHENIA by The Who ... has a variety of prog elements ... and therefore qualifies as "Progressive" (and I personally would recommend it to any Progressive ROCK fan).
IT'S HARD by The Who ... IS NOT progressive and doesn't get listed.
THE GRAND ILLUSION by Styx, considered by many to be pop/prog ... does have many classic prog elements ... and so it qualifies as "Progressive".
CORNERSTONE by Styx ... not prog.
ABBEY ROAD by the Beatles... like it or not -- it does have some obvious prog elements ... so it stays.
A HARD DAY'S NIGHT ... nope ... it goes.
Then... Maybe set up an online survey system (through the forum) for any new Album Requests that are considered "borderline"... and let the majority decide what makes the cut.
Just a suggestion... or the basic idea behind a suggestion ... or maybe more of a premise to consider. Whatever. Quadrophenia should be in.
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Not a bad suggestion.
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7863
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:44 |
I wonder why THE BEATLES addition upsets many site visitors.
Tons of Marillion, Yes and Dream Theater clones are progressive, while THE BEATLES, who changed the face of music like no one before and after them, are not progressive enough to be mentioned on this site. I refuse to understand such logic!
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:47 |
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Greg W
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:47 |
Heptade wrote:
It appears that via the proto-prog and prog-related categories, the people who run things here are being clear that they want to expand the horizons of the site beyond the hardcore genres of prog.
They run the place, so be it...but it will lead to the front page being clogged with endless reviews from Beatles fanatics, of whom there are a lot. Even more than Genesis and Yes freaks. If I see another Close to the Edge review, I"m gonna barf! |
Itis my belief we stick to the so-called hard core stuff. There is enough arguments already about some of them being prog or not.
As far as that goes...I usually side on the side of inclusive.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21206
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:47 |
NotAProghead wrote:
I wonder why THE BEATLES addition upsets many site visitors.
Tons of Marillion, Yes and Dream Theater clones are progressive, while THE BEATLES, who changed the face of music like no one before and after them, are not progressive enough to be mentioned on this site. I refuse to understand such logic!
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They play prog music, but aren't necessarily progressive.
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Greg W
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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Posted: February 15 2006 at 14:49 |
NotAProghead wrote:
I wonder why THE BEATLES addition upsets many site visitors.
Tons of Marillion, Yes and Dream Theater clones are progressive, while THE BEATLES, who changed the face of music like no one before and after them, are not progressive enough to be mentioned on this site. I refuse to understand such logic!
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Once again...i agree they changed music and were progressive. They are not Prog. There is a difference between the two.
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