Nursery Cryme vs. Trespass

Two weeks after getting the album I would have said the exact same thing, 1) Hackett doesn't play as big a role and,

Not that Steve doesn't play a big role in it, maybe I said it wrong, but he doesn't play the basic roled he had on his to first releases with Genesis.

Before The Lamb, Genesis was mainly Peter's voice with Tony and Steve working together plus any good drummer and bass player.

Don't misunderstand me, Phil is a top ten drummer and Mike is flawless, but they are not essential for the band's sound, even a less talented drummer would had make it with Genesis and there are hundreed of bass players that could have replaced Mike.

Maybe yes, but there is one thing that Mike brought to the band that other bass players may not have had, his songwriting, i'm pretty sure that he and Banks wroth Firth of Fifth together, sure there may be more qualified bass players, but to me, it's not always how technically skilled a musician is, it's how he adds to the music, through songwriting or simple melodies etc. That said though, Collins is fun as hell to listen to, I mean listen to the end of 'The Waiting Room', that always has me breaking out my air drums.

Genesis with Peter, Tony and Steve, didn't really needed another virtuoso, because  their music is based in bandwork more than in individual talent.

If Genesis is unique for something it's because the special sound created by the complemented work of Steve Hackett and Tony Banks, they blend their instruments, and reach a point in which you don't 100% know who is who, it was perfect.

I remember a few years ago with a younger cousin who came with his band to jam at my house (his drummer was sick and I lived in a bigger house with a music room back in the garden), and I showed them a VHS of early Genesis, he laughed on Steve's style and how he played sitting down (My coiusin is a metal head), so I asked him to try following a record while I was trying to make the drum parts.

After 15 minutes he said, that this guy was impossible to follow and far much more complex than anything he had played before, I had to play Firth of Fifth 5 times before he was convinced that Steve's solo wasn't layed by a keyboard.

2) The Genesis atmosphere had gone with the wind, I also thought 

It was gone, the sound and darkness of the three previous albums is subtle, the atmosphere covers everything and the music seems to float, that was Genesis trade mark. You knew all the musicians were virtuoso, but it was hard to identify them clearly because of the lack of solos.

In The Lamb, the sound is direct, from the start, the tittle song is mostly a Rock track with keyboard fugues, Hackett plays in a different style than his natural one, maybe that's the reason why he doesn't like The Lamb as much as SEBTP or Nursery Cryme.

3) Lamb Lies Down is too dark and claustrophobic to make me feel any sort of connection with the album.

The Lamb is not dark (At least not as the previous) by the contrary it's fantastic and bright, but it's clearly claustrophobic (I still believe that Peter had read The Trial by Kafka before creating The Lamb), and I love that.

I have to disgree with you there, but i'm not sure that it is my place to. When I first heard 'Foxtrot', I honestly and truly never seen any dark qualities to it, of course when I heard Foxtrot first I never knew this site existed so I never thought I SHOULD have felt it was dark, if you get me. Whereas when I first heard 'The Lamb', well I did feel it was dark, some songs come to mind that have very dark qualities, eg. 'In the Cage', 'Anyway', 'The Lamia', 'In the Rapids'. These, especially The Lamia made me feel slightly uncomfortable, the album did not seem inviting, I felt it had a sort of claustrophobic quality. When I think of Foxtrot I think of a big bright blue cover and then something full of wonderful imagery and colour, and that's the music i'm talking about hehe. So I never felt it was dark, maybe some of the lyrics at times, But I can't tell you you're WRONG, I mean we all have different emotional responses to different things, that's how I saw things and i'm fine with your view too (but it is a little wierd )

Listen In the Cage, for God's sake I'm almost at the border of a nervous break each time that I play it but still have to listen it over and over, and I don't believe that Steve is so impórtant there.

I like his dark heavy guitar in the background, not a big role? Hmmm, he's what I pick up on when I listen to the song, that and of course Gabriels singing.

The spirit of the song is in Peter's voice, he's semi yodelling is almost a cry for help and panic, and the breathtaking keyboards by Tony are badkuped by Mike Rutherford (Who does a spectacular work) and not by Steve.

I love that song.

Only in the last few weeks i've felt, Christ, this album really is something special, it sort of just opened up and at the atmosphere returned, the album can be so subtle that (As with Wind and Wuthering)

I disagree, The Lamb is as subtle as an elefant in a cristal shop. It's pompous, over blown complex and deep, and that's what makes a masterpiece of it.

I have to agree with you there, it is very very deep, And it is complex, and the subtlety in the music is part of that complexity, I pick up something new every time I hear it. Could be a simple guitar lick or a keyboard fill, but the albums like a never ending story to me. And yes, at times it can be overblown, brilliant though when it is

Except for Peter's voice, doesn't sound as a Genesis album, it's totally contradictory with the moment in the evolution of the band, they started pop, made a high jump and released a very Prog and haunting album, the next two were even more complex, but then they started to come softer and friendlier with SEBTP and them comes The Lamb, unique and totally different to anything done by Genesis or even any Prog band.

I think it seems very different because a lot of Genesis records had expanded on the album they had done before, Trespass - Nursery Cryme - Foxtrot, they just seem to get better yet there is a very strong connection with the last (Which makes me think of what you said about Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot released as one double album), Selling England was a more approachable album because the mucky production that had given the albums before it their wonderful atmosphere had now gone, and the production was clean as a whistle, the simple beautiful melodies were now at the fore and they were CRYSTAL clear, so the album does have a soft edge to it, it's very musical though don't you think? Oh, and yes, Trespass can sound haunting at times, but not throughout the whole thing. So when something so radically different in sound came along like The Lamb, of course it was going to feel different, but shouldn't that be admired?

 I never really noticed the musicians doing anything special, Hackett in particular. But when I listened to the album more it became easier to listen to and I picked up on all these wonderful melodies and excellent instrumental parts. I mean listen to 'Fly on a Windsheild', listen to that in the dead of night and tell me that has no atmosphere, and how Banks and Hackett work together to create it.

After almost 30 years, I stand on my point, Genesis does a totally different work to their usual in The Lamb.

Listen to Hacketts guitar parts on 'Cuckoo Cocoon', 'In the Cage', 'Counting Out Time', 'Hairless Heart', 'Lilywhite Lilith', 'Here Comes the Supernatural Anaesthetist', 'Ravine', 'It.', even his simple counter melody to Gabriels vocals on 'The Carpet Crawlers', all the magic of Hacketts playing is there, subtle of course, hidden behind Gabriel's characters and storyline maybe but it's very much a part of the album.

The magic of Hackett is there, yes, but he's wasted, he could have done much more using his natural style, he sounds a bit forced and artiificial, this doesn't mean I don't like The Lamb, I love it, but IMO Foxtrot, NC and even Trespass are better. Despite the fact that The Lamb is more important for Prog history than almost any other Genesis album.

For me, something like 'The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway' is so unique and so fresh sounding that it stands very much by itself in the Genesis catalogue. I think maybe it helped the band from becoming stale, it's a whole new sound, that's what makes it a challenge, especially for me as I had already become a huge fan of Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot and Selling England by the Pound.

I became a fan of Genesis with ATOTT and SEBTP, and The Lamb was impressive, but when I really got into the first three Prog Genesis aklbums, the band became an addiction.

Iván