Nursery Cryme vs. Trespass

ivan_2068 wrote: I rate NC with 5 and Trespass with 4.5, so it's Nursery Cryme by a nose. Iván

Bit high, I don't think Nursery Cryme should be given the status of 'masterpiece', and Trespass is a solid four, would you really give it a higher mark?

Winter Wine wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: I rate NC with 5 and Trespass with 4.5, so it's Nursery Cryme by a nose. Iván Bit high, I don't think Nursery Cryme should be given the status of 'masterpiece', and Trespass is a solid four, would you really give it a higher mark?

I have reasons to give this high ratings: 

Nursery Cryme:

1. The best Genesis song ever which is The Musical Box
2. No fillers excpet maybe For Absent Friends, but it's still a very good song.
3. The perfectly dark atmosphere
4. Fountain of Salmacis, another top ten
5. Harold the Barrell, a taste of acid humor.
6. The first album with the classic lineup

Trespass:

1. An incredible evolution from a poppy album to a serious Progressive Rock release by a bunch of teenagers (Most of Genesis members reached 20 in 1970 except Ant who was one year younger).
2. Even darker atmosphere than in the next two albums.
3. Peter Gabriel's voice sounds more natural and clear than ever
4. Absolutely not a weak song.
5. Excellent use of acoustic instruments like Tony's piano and Anthony's guitar.}

Those are my reasons.

Iván

Yes, Snow Dog, I believe it's the same Trespass, the difference is in the taste.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Winter Wine wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: I rate NC with 5 and Trespass with 4.5, so it's Nursery Cryme by a nose. Iván Bit high, I don't think Nursery Cryme should be given the status of 'masterpiece', and Trespass is a solid four, would you really give it a higher mark? I have reasons to give this high ratings:  Nursery Cryme: The best Genesis song ever which is The Musical Box No fillers excpet maybe For Absent Friends, but it's still a very good song. The perfectly dark atmosphere Fountain of Salmacis, another top ten Harold the Barrell, a taste of acid humor. The first album with the classic lineup Trespass: An incredible evolution from a poppy album to a serious Progressive Rock release by a bunch of teenagers (Most of Genesis members reached 20 in 1970 except Ant who was one year younger). Even darker atmosphere than in the next two albums. Peter Gabriel's voice sounds more natural and clear than ever Absolutely not a weak song. Excellent use of acoustic instruments like Tony's piano and Anthony's guitar.} Those are my reasons. Iván

Ivan I understand you reasons, and i'm very interested in what you have to say (unless it's about Genesis after Hackett ) but I think that Foxtrot is a much more well rounded and cohesive effort than Nursery Cryme, it's certaintly dated better and some of Gabriels vocals on Nursery Cryme don't quite hit the mark. I also think that 'Supper's Ready' is THE definitive Genesis song, it's twists and turns are so amusing and breathtaking, and the finale!!

ivan_2068 wrote: Winter Wine wrote: Ivan I understand you reasons, and i'm very interested in what you have to say (unless it's about Genesis after Hackett ) but I think that Foxtrot is a much more well rounded and cohesive effort than Nursery Cryme, it's certaintly dated better and some of Gabriels vocals on Nursery Cryme don't quite hit the mark. I also think that 'Supper's Ready' is THE definitive Genesis song, it's twists and turns are so amusing and breathtaking, and the finale!! I get your point, I always had some trouble deciding which is my favorite album between Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme, because both have such a similar atmosphere, both have their high points and both have disadvantages in comparison with the other. This is some things I think: Foxtrot is more solid, but none in the level of Musical Box. Nursery Cryme has three superb songs, one very good two good and one weaker, but not bad. Supper's Ready is not my favorite Genesis song, my top 5 are: Musical Box Fountain of Salmacis Can-Utility and the Coastliners White Mountain Supper's Ready Both should have been originally released as one whole perfect album that today would be considered the icon of the genre. Both deserve 5 stars, but Foxtrot is slightly better IMO as a whole. Iván

Your top 5 I do find surprising but they're all excellent songs, no matter what order.

I think if those albums had've been released as a whole they would have no character, and Nursery Cryme would not have seemed so innovative in 72 as it did in 71, if you get me.

Yeah I agree, Foxtrot is a stronger album, but there are a couple of other Genesis albums that I feel are also stronger than Nursery Cryme. I think 'The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway' is their darkest, most ambitious and out and out WACKIEST hour, for me listening to that album is like being immersed in a fantasy type film as the lyrics are just so vivid! It's amazing. So I think Foxtrot and The Lamb are their most important.

1. Nursery Cryme (****1/2)
2. Trespass (****)

both excellent releases from the greatest prog band of all time.

Yea, I said it.  Big whoop, wanna fight about it .

Snow Dog wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Yes, Snow Dog, I believe it's the same Trespass, the difference is in the taste. Iván You mean I haven't got any?

Don't be so dramatic (You're sounding like a politician on campaign)  I mean we both have a different and unique taste, as I been saying all along this weeks.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Winter Wine wrote: Your top 5 I do find surprising but they're all excellent songs, no matter what order. I think if those albums had've been released as a whole they would have no character, and Nursery Cryme would not have seemed so innovative in 72 as it did in 71, if you get me. Yeah I agree, Foxtrot is a stronger album, but there are a couple of other Genesis albums that I feel are also stronger than Nursery Cryme. I think 'The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway' is their darkest, most ambitious and out and out WACKIEST hour, for me listening to that album is like being immersed in a fantasy type film as the lyrics are just so vivid! It's amazing. So I think Foxtrot and The Lamb are their most important. Lately I've been more surprise for the repeated times I read some member saying that Trespass is their favorite album. When I started in the net this gem was underrated, now it's getting the recognition it deserves. But back to the issue: The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway: Created by and for Peter Gabriel (mostly)  to be the icon of an era, a double conceptual album done by one of the big 5 with their roots in Kafka and in Peter's childhood. Full of symbolism and secret messages that not even today are revealed by it's creator (s). But it has something I don't like, they lost the atmosphere, before The Lamb, Genesis music floated in the air as a heavy mist that slowly felt over us and covered everything, the music seems to come from everywhere, the audience is part of the music. In the lamb we're part of the adventure, but from the start instead of a heavy mist, we have an electro shock, and that's what Peter pretended. Don't look at me! I'm not your kind. I'm Rael! The Lamb is different, in first place is a conceptual album, the longer songs format is replaced for a short and more aggressive one. If in Musical Box we were there in the lawn to see how Cynthia Jane de Blaise-William with a smile removed Henry’s head, almost as spectators, in The Lamb Rael is spitting all his anger in our face. In Can-Utility and the Coastliners we see a King who can force the waters to retreat at his command, in The Cage we share the pain, anguish and claustrophobia with Rael. The aggression is veryr strong, but the atmosphere is not present. Steve Hackett doesn't play a very important role in The Lamb as in the previous albums. For me The Lamb is less a team work, this album has Peter's signature al over it. But of course it's a masterpiece. only different. I love the concept of The Lamb, but that dark atmosphere, that thick mist which was Genesis trademark dissapears inthis album. Iván

Two weeks after getting the album I would have said the exact same thing, 1) Hackett doesn't play as big a role and, 2) The Genesis atmosphere had gone with the wind, I also thought 3) The Lamb Lies Down is too dark and claustrophobic to make me feel any sort of connection with the album.

Only in the last few weeks i've felt, Christ, this album really is something special, it sort of just opened up and at the atmosphere returned, the album can be so subtle that (As with Wind and Wuthering) I never really noticed the musicians doing anything special, Hackett in particular. But when I listened to the album more it became easier to listen to and I picked up on all these wonderful melodies and excellent instrumental parts. I mean listen to 'Fly on a Windsheild', listen to that in the dead of night and tell me that has no atmosphere, and how Banks and Hackett work together to create it.

Listen to Hacketts guitar parts on 'Cuckoo Cocoon', 'In the Cage', 'Counting Out Time', 'Hairless Heart', 'Lilywhite Lilith', 'Here Comes the Supernatural Anaesthetist', 'Ravine', 'It.', even his simple counter melody to Gabriels vocals on 'The Carpet Crawlers', all the magic of Hacketts playing is there, subtle of course, hidden behind Gabriel's characters and storyline maybe but it's very much a part of the album.

For me, something like 'The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway' is so unique and so fresh sounding that it stands very much by itself in the Genesis catalogue. I think maybe it helped the band from becoming stale, it's a whole new sound, that's what makes it a challenge, especially for me as I had already become a huge fan of Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot and Selling England by the Pound.