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Sean Trane ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20436 |
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Agree with you with Doors influences. Another exciting group in that realm was Television. |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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PROGMAN ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: February 03 2004 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 2664 |
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Good band, they have elements of Prog but no more IMO!!
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CYMRU AM BYTH
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BaldFriede ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
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I completely agree with you about "Summer is icumen in". Not a good example for polyphony; it is a mere canon (or round), and a rather simple one too. The voices are more or less all alike. Which is why I didn't cite it as an example. If you want to hear real polyphony, listen to J. S. Bach's "The Art of Fugue", his "Mass in B Minor" or "The Musical Offering". Other good examples are Joseph Haydn's string quartets or the "Große Fuge" by Ludwig van Beethoven (originally planned as final movement for his 13th string quartet (opus 130), yet his publisher urged him to write a different final movement for this string quartet, because it was too complicated to play. The "Große Fuge" is now an opus of its own, opus 133).
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![]() BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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krusty ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: September 27 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1777 |
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I was going to mention "Down in the Sewer" as well, what an excelent track. I also second the albums mentioned above. I was a fully paid up member of their fan club, I have all the early stuff prior to to Aural Sculpture Picture disc singles, fan club only stuff, saw them dozens of times, etc, etc... but I wouldn't call them prog, I hear a fair amount of influence from the Doors in there music and I don't think the Doors are on here either?? ![]() Now might be a bit harder if we were talking about Magazine ![]() |
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Certif1ed ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
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Wikipedia really annoys me sometimes - the Reading Rota, "Sumer is Icumen In" is the very first written example of a Round (like the tunes "London's Burning" or "Frere Jaques"). It is NOT specifically an early example of polyphony - a better example would have been Byrd's 40-part motet "Spem in Alium". The Reading Rota is not written in 6-parts at all, but was conceptualised contrapuntally so that 6 could sing it and join in at regular intervals, building up the round. Wikipedia makes the distinction between Fugue (counterpoint) and polyphony, yet the Round is a primitive and simplified version of the fugue. Marillion's music on "Script..." is an excellent example of both polyphonic and contrapuntal music writing, albeit at a different level to Gentle Giant.
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Blacksword ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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Thanks! I have No More Heroes. Great album |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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pero ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 11 2005 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 1242 |
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Why do you have only four stars (collaborator), when i'ts obvious that you know prog music better than everyone on progarchives? |
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BaldFriede ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
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Hmm, somehow this thread disappeared from the listing and can only be found again if someone especially searches for it.
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![]() BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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BaldFriede ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
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You must not confuse "polyphony" with "pseudo-polyphony". The latter uses two or more different voices too; the difference, however, is that in the latter these voices are NOT independent of each other and essentially rely on mere chord progression. Pseudo-polyphony indeed often occurs in prog-rock; real polyphony is very rare. Gentle Giant and High Tide are examples for bands who use real polyphony, also Frank Zappa occasionally. Zappa is sometimes very complex and even occasionally uses polytonality (2 or more different scales at the same time).
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Blacksword ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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^ Thanks for posting that. I was thinking of Homophony! It doesn't sound like such an usual approach to writing music. Are you sure this is uncommon in prog rock? I'm sure it's not beyond the musicians, maybe it just doesn't occur to them to use it. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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BaldFriede ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
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From the entry on polyphony in Wikipedia: Polyphony is a musical texture consisting of two or more independent melodic voices, as opposed to music with just one voice (monophony) or music with one dominant melodic voice accompanied by chords (homophony). The term is usually used in reference to music of the late Middle Ages and Renaissance: Baroque forms such as the fugue which might be called polyphonic are usually described instead as contrapuntal. Also, as opposed to the species terminology of counterpoint, polyphony was generally either "pitch-against-pitch"/"point-against-point" or "sustained-pitch" in one part with melismas of varying lengths in another (van der Werf, 1997). In all cases the conception was likely what Margaret Bent (1999) calls "dyadic counterpoint", with each part being written generally against one other part, with all parts modified if needed in the end. This point-against-point conception is opposed to "successive composition", where voices were written in an order with each new voice fitting into the whole so far constructed, which was previously assumed. Two treatises, both dating from c. 900, are usually considered the oldest surviving part-music though they are note-against-note, voices move mostly in parallel octaves, fifths, and fourths, and they were not intended to be performed. The 'Winchester Tropers', from c. 1000, are the oldest surviving example of practical rather than pedagogical polyphony, though intervals, pitch levels, and durations are often not indicated. (van der Werf, 1997) The oldest surviving piece of six-part music is the English rota Sumer is icumen in (ca. 1240). (Albright, 2004) Incipient polyphony (previously primitive polyphony) includes antiphony and Call and response (music), drones, and parallel intervals. I only partially concur with this definition though; seperating fugues and the usage of counterpoint from polyphony is splitting hairs; the usage of counterpoints is only a more refined technique of polyphony. Johann Sebastian Bach undoubtedly was the grandmaster of counterpoint (and hence of polyphony too). |
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Blacksword ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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Just looked it up. It basically means the use of independant melody lines - played together- in a piece of music, so I guess thats fits your description. I think in literal terms it just means multi voice. If it's the musical approach that I think it is then I'm sure I've heard Yes, VDGG and numerous other bands using it. I dont think it's unusual in prog. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Peter ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
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No. Great band, but not a prog band. If the Stranglers were to be included, there would be little justification for the exclusion of 50-100 other late 70s-early 80 acts. |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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glass house ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 16 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 4986 |
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I've got Rattus Norvegicus and No More Heroes, the rest suck........IMHO!! Mediocre pop.
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bobo ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: June 29 2005 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 7 |
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to blacksword - try their first two - Rattus Norvegicus and No More Heroes, and also the live "Stranglers and Friends live at concert". especially listen to "Down in the Sewer" from their first album. if the Stranglers were ever prog for a few minutes, it's in this song.
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the contracts of my youth expire
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Sean Trane ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20436 |
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I'll give it a go at this but I am not sure I got it right. from what I gather from Bulgarian and Corsican chants is that there are singers singing in time but on different scales (not octaves) . |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Blacksword ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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^ Can you define polyphony? |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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BaldFriede ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
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Sean, they used real polyphony, a very advanced trait most prog rock bands aren't even able to use (Gentle Giant are a notable example). I'd definitely call the use of polyphony "prog"! |
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![]() BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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Sean Trane ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20436 |
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Although fully punk by their attitude, the stranglers were a bit rejected by other punk group by being suspect because they had a KB player (noticably older too) , sporting mustaches, and slightly more complex tunes. But to call them prog is taking things a bit too far, IMHO!! I'd say they were more of a pub rock band a bit like Dr Feelgood Their french bassist JJ Burnell was always picking fights, too! Among the other suspect groups were The Police with a jazz bassist, a prog drummer ans an ex-hippie guitarist, Outlandos D'Amour was an outstanding album. The Jam were sometimes complex , but in their later days - The Gift Edited by Sean Trane |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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hemmick reef ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: January 25 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 7 |
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Get the cd's I mentioned in my post above - you won't be sorry! |
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