Why do you blame collins?

ivan_2068 wrote: alan_pfeifer wrote: You know, musicans have  to eat too. Peter Gabriel Steve Hackett Dave Gilmour Roger Waters Ian Anderson Robert Fripp Bill Bruford Tony Levin Steve Howe Rick Wakeman Are not exactly poor Iván

Indeed, and Let's hope they're not

But seriously, why do we blame Collins?  If he destryoed the band and all, then wouldn't the Rutherford and Banks have left the band as well?

i think people blame him Because he was the frontman and his solo stuff is really bland pop and they just assume it was him and hes such an easy target just look at the guy

This picture scares me

Another band would be Soft Machine, their debut also has most components of prog (and was released before ITCOTCK), yet it wasn't the big breakthrough in rock music KC made a year later.

You are probably right here about SM . . .  My argument is that KC did not hold a 'special place' in the history of prog. until much later and although they may have turned many people on to prog, it does not mean that they were the first 'prog' band. 

The jazz sophistication of the first album lay not only in the improvisation but the orchestrations, which are Ian McDonald, although compositional credit is given to all on the two tracks that are most well- orchestrated: 21st and Epitaph. This may have something to do with the bands recognition of the interest of the orchestrations.  The use of the bass clarinet seems to have reference to Miles Davis Bitches Brew, which came out earlier in the year. Also some of the harmonic vocabulary at the beginnning of The Court seems to come out of BB.  The first KC was an incredible ensemble.

 . . .to put it in perspective of Genesis.  From my reading it seems that Genesis held a very distinct place among fans of early prog.  I think a big part of it must have been the theatrics or maybe the lyrics, which are not mutually exclusive.  There seems to be an important place that theatrics held in early prog.  ELP was also a very theatrical band, but the theatrics lay in musical virtuosity, destroying organs, spinning pianos and revolving drums sets.  Genesis relied more on mood than virtuosity and destruction.  I think that mood was an important element to the escapist notions of early prog. For Genesis as for KC, the destruction of this world was inevitable. KC sees this reality through the expressionistic eyes of terror.  Genesis is more resolved to the reality and creates an escapist fantasy.  ELP, like the Who and Hendrix were acting it out.  (Radiohead really picks up where they left off with that theme.) 

You people talk as if Collins was the only one in the band. Didn't the other guys had any brains at all to make anything?

Plus everything has it's cicle of life. Born, Growth, Reproduction, Ageing, Death.

I think they did their contibution to the music and it was so important that it will trascend. That's the important thing. And collins contibuted

I pretty much disagree with all you said. ITCOTCK is not at all silly, and really is the first prog album.

What are you trying to say with that paragraph about gender? (Btw, KC isn't the most masculine in the group for sure, particularly NOT their first albums which are the ones we're talking about)>>

My point is that, yes, everybody agrees the ITCOTCK is the first prog album.   There is something exclusive about KC that garners them this title and what that may be muscially is the improvisation.  I think though a better part of it is Prog is a male dominated genre and KC has come to identify the maculine side of old school prog. Red has often been described as the first heavy metal album.  So people are more comfortable with KC as the first real not proto prog group.  Maybe this comes from Macan's book. Historically, however, this is just not the case. The term prog was used earlier in 1968 to refer to Procol Harum and The Nice both of which are more prog because they identify the key element of what prog was and that was integrating classical references into the music. The Nice had all of the components of prog, classical references, odd meters, folk references and improvisation. I am also a big ELP fan and the reason why ITCOTCK is silly for me is Lake's lyrics.  They ruined many a good ELP song,too. He's a great bassist though

NetsNJFan wrote: Ivan, I really do think sometimes that you let your dissapointment of Gabriel and Hackett leaving cloud your judgement of later Genesis.  So what, its no perfect prog, its still very good music.  It's not prog at all, it may be good music for people who like soft POP, but not for me.   I really do reccomend you listen to the Three Sides Live album (which I think is their best live) and tell me those songs aren't prog (most of them).

Nope, it doesn't cloud me at all, I bought Three sides Live (Really the 4 sides live one) and it sucks.

The medley is horrible, Phil Collins singing for example In the Cage lacks of depth, emotion, panic., Daryl Stuermer is an excellent Jazz guitar player, but he can't create the atnmoispheres Steve Hackett did.

At the end I bought one 4 sides album for one side that doesn't fill me.

Ivàn

EDIT: I'm out of Lima, so I will be posting less often, But none of us compared Phil with Britney, we only answered to the fact that creating a hit single does not require great skills in most of cases.