We -need- progressive rap.

How about Dalek?

Quote: Dalek is the MC who has his sights set on Hip-Hop 2000. With worldwide scope and influence, Dalek speaks to all of us regardless of race or background. We are a universal community, aware of our spiral towards violence and destruction, and Dalek serves as a wakeup call, bringing forth a message through apocalyptic beats and abstract rhymes.

Once, the music of artists like KRS One, Public Enemy and N.W.A. spoke to us with lyrics and music that galvanized us and helped to create a youth-oriented urban political voice. Now, it seems as though there might not be any room left for politics in hip hop (if you based that opinion solely on recent record sales). Dalek offers an alternative by creating a medium of interaction never before experienced, fusing the sounds of groups like Faust or The Velvet Underground with the raw energy of Eric B and Rakim

End quote.

Metal music now uses rappers, just listen to Xecutioners (Linkin Park members), Linkin Park with Jayzee (sp.) for instance.  I am sure progressive music can be linked with rap/hip-hop.  I am not sure if I'd necessarily like it though.  I am always open to new music, so I would give it a listen at least.

I like a lot of Prodigy (not rap I know) and that has a lot of progressive elements and samples, the same applied with Fat Boy Slim.

Anything is possible.

Also, check out this link: http://www.scaruffi.com/history/cpt513.html


Edited by Geck0

The Doctor wrote: No.  We do not need progressive rap.  That would lead to prog gangstas, turf wars between the artists.  Could you imagine Jon Anderson doing a drive-by of Peter Gabriel's house?  The lyrics would become nothing more than talking about what a great band they are, the sexual prowess of its members, and how the other bands suck and are gonna get shot up.  Let's not forget the anger directed toward the police for just doing their job and arresting scumbags.  No, progressive rap would lead to a massive deterioration of the art form into nothing more than a feeding ground for the bottom feeders of the world.

If I have to read one more post like this I think I'll explode. For Christ's sakes, mainstream rap sucks and we all know it. But, whether you want to believe it or not, there are many more unknown rap artists out there whose lyrics and musicality are exponentially better than what you've heard on the radio. A good way to tell if you know anything about rap: if you actually think "gangstas" and that sort of thing are part of the genre, then no, you don't know anything about it.

Ivan: I find it funny that you thought I was "only a rap fan with good intentions" when I already made it clear that I was not a big rap fan; I'm simply someone who can accept the fact that the genre has good artists and goes much deeper than the crap the radio plays. If I showed you my current playlist of over 1000 songs, you'd see that literally less than 10 of them were rap, so please, don't think my judgement is clouded by some sort of blind fanatacism or something like that. That said, I have listened to a good deal of rap, and although I have not enjoyed it all, it's still been obvious to me that most of the artists are lyrically interesting and have the potential to be musically interesting, should they ever choose to be. Many of them already are.

Like Con Safo, I'm not a rap expert and I don't claim to be, but I know many people who are; those people could easily name 100 great rap artists off the top of their heads and it's because of their knowledge that I'm aware of the existance of quality rap artists.

About a year ago, I had the exact same misinformed opinion as you. I hated all rap and thought it was impossible for good rap to exist. Any time somebody showed me a good rap artist, I assumed that they were an exception to the rule and dismissed them as such. Now, obviously, I've been proven wrong and have a different opinion now that I have a larger knowledge of the genre and its characteristics. It is because of this, though, that I can see the futility in this argument: when I thought like you, I refused to change my mind regardless of how many times people told me I was wrong, and I can see you're being the same way.

You claim to be using logic, but logic doesn't work when the basic facts of the situation remain unknown to you. Before you can try to legitimately argue against rap, you have to know about rap beyond the terrible mainstream artists, and you admittedly don't, so what's the point of trying to convince you that you're wrong when you don't even know a thing about the topic at hand? There is no point, as this thread has proven time and time again. We've been talking in circles here for a long time and I don't have the energy to keep explaining the same things to you over and over again because you're clearly unwilling to accept the truth, so, in the interest of my time and sanity, I'm going to just agree to disagree here for now. If you ever do some research on what the rap genre is actually like and want to continue this discussion afterwards, I'd be glad to, but for now it's just a waste of everybody's time. It would be like me trying to argue with you about what it's like to be a lawyer - obviously you would know a lot more about that than me, but I could just as easily sit here and keep refusing to listen to you, re-stating my incorrect opinions based on my limited knowledge of the subject from what I've seen on TV shows and in movies.

The bottom line: this argument is going nowhere, and until you know a thing or two about the subject, it will continue to go nowhere. Good day to you, sir. Hopefully there are no hard feelings left behind.

Well, some people are arguing about mixing progressive rock with rap, and some people are arguing about mixing sophistication with rap. And some poeple think they're the same thing .

I suppose to create a hybrid of progressive rock and rap (not what the original thread said, but there we go), it must be accepted that sophistication with rapping is possible, so let me provide just a couple of examples. You don't have to like it, but to say it's simple, one beat repeated over and over again, etc. etc. is just wrong

http://www.m-base.org/myths_modes_and_means_mp3_files/Song_o f_the_beginnings.mp3

...and yes, you have to wait about fourteen minutes before it moves into proper rapping, but for about three or four minutes before that it's sort of half singing. Nineteen minutes long? It must be prog

The Doctor wrote: No.  We do not need progressive rap.  That would lead to prog gangstas, turf wars between the artists.  Could you imagine Jon Anderson doing a drive-by of Peter Gabriel's house?  The lyrics would become nothing more than talking about what a great band they are, the sexual prowess of its members, and how the other bands suck and are gonna get shot up.  Let's not forget the anger directed toward the police for just doing their job and arresting scumbags.  No, progressive rap would lead to a massive deterioration of the art form into nothing more than a feeding ground for the bottom feeders of the world.

Ty 1020 answered:

A good way to tell if you know anything about rap: if you actually think "gangstas" and that sort of thing are part of the genre, then no, you don't know anything about it.

Ty 1020 saoid again:

If you ever do some research on what the rap genre is actually like and want to continue this discussion afterwards, I'd be glad to

Well, I'm doing the research and guess what I found, Con Safo mentioned in his list of great Rappers a  N°1 a guy named Immortal Technique, let's see his background:

Compiling multiple assault charges in New York State and in other states eventually caught up to the uncompromisingly hardheaded actions of one Immortal Technique. He faced several charges for Aggravated Assault in the tri-state area. Realizing his inevitable incarceration... .......He was facing a 5-10 stretch, but the hiring of a pittbull attorney helped him compile the cases without turning snitch like his co-defendants. The result was a 1-2 year sentence in the mountains, 6 hours away from the city. Taken from his web page in Viper Records

Is there any difference with mainstream Rappers, please, the guy is a convicted criminal.

• Does he have musical studies.....NO
• Is he virtuoso in any instrument....NO
• Does he even plays instruments...NO
• Where did he learned to Rap.....In Prison, after he recieved a soft condemn due to tecnicalities used by a "pittbull lawyer".

And don't come me with the BS that this is because lack of opportunities because

the kid still managed to finish high school and got accepted to a state university. Unfortunately the survivalist and aggressive attitude that was the norm in New York City caused him to be involved in more violent altercations at school, whether it was with other brothers, false flaggers or the relentlessly racist population of an uncultured Middle America.

He chosed this life even when he reached the university, the easy way is blaming the rest of the people, "New York", "his brothers", "false Flaggers" or "Racist Population of the uncultured middle America" always blaming the rest of the people, never himself, how convinient.

Is this what we want for Prog'? Is there any difference with the scumbags you mention Doctor? I don't think so, this guy is even worst.

By the way, also mentioned Gang Starr, has this some relation with Gangsta?

I also found a some info about another "great Underground band" (In Con Safo's words) called Ugly Duckling:

When Ugly Duckling came through Iowa City last year promoting their second album, Journey to Anywhere, they left a bit to be desired, especially when overcompensating by telling us how "real" they were.... Anyway, imagine my surprise when I heard Ugly Duckling's new Taste the Secret, which is anything but authentic. What undie hip-hop group in its right mind would dare hire 1980s one-hit wonder Stacey "Two of Hearts" Q to help write pop hooks for a concept album about a fast-food chain that only serves meat fries, meat salads, and meatshakes? The Long Beach trio sprinkles ad jingles ("When you're hungry and thirsty") between ridiculously hummable songs http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0324,mcleod,44742,22.html

Sound like Posers to me.

And just starting the search

Iván

 

 

Edited by ivan_2068

No, it's not a valid point. Near the end you claim that rap fans are trend followers. Ok, so many people listening to trendy rap are trend followers. So to are many people listening to trendy rock. Does that make all rock fans trend followers? If so, how does prog rock exist?

Edited by goose

BePinkTheater wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: The Doctor wrote: No.  We do not need progressive rap.  That would lead to prog gangstas, turf wars between the artists.  Could you imagine Jon Anderson doing a drive-by of Peter Gabriel's house?  The lyrics would become nothing more than talking about what a great band they are, the sexual prowess of its members, and how the other bands suck and are gonna get shot up.  Let's not forget the anger directed toward the police for just doing their job and arresting scumbags.  No, progressive rap would lead to a massive deterioration of the art form into nothing more than a feeding ground for the bottom feeders of the world. Ty 1020 answered: A good way to tell if you know anything about rap: if you actually think "gangstas" and that sort of thing are part of the genre, then no, you don't know anything about it. Ty 1020 saoid again: If you ever do some research on what the rap genre is actually like and want to continue this discussion afterwards, I'd be glad to Well, I'm doing the research and guess what I found, Con Safo mentioned in his list of great Rappers a  N°1 a guy named Immortal Technique, let's see his background: Compiling multiple assault charges in New York State and in other states eventually caught up to the uncompromisingly hardheaded actions of one Immortal Technique. He faced several charges for Aggravated Assault in the tri-state area. Realizing his inevitable incarceration... .......He was facing a 5-10 stretch, but the hiring of a pittbull attorney helped him compile the cases without turning snitch like his co-defendants. The result was a 1-2 year sentence in the mountains, 6 hours away from the city. Taken from his web page in Viper Records  Is there any difference with mainstream Rappers, please, the guy is a convicted criminal. Does he have musical studies.....NO Is he virtuoso in any instrument....NO Does he even plays instruments...NO Where did he learned to Rap.....In Prison, after he recieved a soft condemn due to tecnicalities used by a "pittbull lawyer". And don't come me with the BS that this is because lack of opportunities because the kid still managed to finish high school and got accepted to a state university. Unfortunately the survivalist and aggressive attitude that was the norm in New York City caused him to be involved in more violent altercations at school, whether it was with other brothers, false flaggers or the relentlessly racist population of an uncultured Middle America. He chosed this life even when he reached the university, the easy way is blaming the rest of the people, "New York", "his brothers", "false Flaggers" or "Racist Population of the uncultured middle America" always blaming the rest of the people, never himself, how convinient. Is this what we want for Prog'? Is there any difference with the scumbags you mention Doctor? I don't think so, this guy is even worst. By the way, also mentioned Gang Starr, has this some relation with Gangsta? I also found a some info about another "great Underground band" (In Con Safo's words) called Ugly Duckling: When Ugly Duckling came through Iowa City last year promoting their second album, Journey to Anywhere, they left a bit to be desired, especially when overcompensating by telling us how "real" they were.... Anyway, imagine my surprise when I heard Ugly Duckling's new Taste the Secret, which is anything but authentic. What undie hip-hop group in its right mind would dare hire 1980s one-hit wonder Stacey "Two of Hearts" Q to help write pop hooks for a concept album about a fast-food chain that only serves meat fries, meat salads, and meatshakes? The Long Beach trio sprinkles ad jingles ("When you're hungry and thirsty") between ridiculously hummable songs http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0324,mcleod,44742,22.html  Sound like Posers to me. And just starting the search Iván     Ivan I applaud you! For once  you made a coherrent and valid argument.and it only took you 6 pages!   'but in all seriousness you have a good point. I does mean anything to the possiblilty of Prog rap, but you are correct. It does matter if all of them are posers and hoodlums, they can still make god music if they were put in a room wiht the right people and the right mindset.

Well done Ivan and well said. 

Pink.  I disagree.  It does matter if they are hoodlums.  Do we as a society want to exalt people who are incapable of living by society's standards?  And I'm not talking about harmless activities which go against society's standards like smoking a little pot, or being homosexual, or whatever.  I'm talking about crimes with victims.  These people are criminals and should be taken off the streets permanently, not awarded multi-million dollar recording contracts so that they can brag about their crimes and influence the children of america and elsewhere to commit similar crimes against humanity.  Further, I think it is pretty obvious that these people have very little talent and cannot make good music.  That is, if you can even stretch the definition of music far enough to include rap within its confines.  I submit that you cannot.

BePinkTheater wrote: It does matter if all of them are posers and hoodlums, they can still make god music if they were put in a room wiht the right people and the right mindset.

I don't think so, in order to make great music you need a solid musical formation or at least the basics, but most of this guys don't absolutely care, it's easier and requires less effort to just blame the whole world without any real musical talent.

And if you're talking about Rap being blended with Prog, no way ,over any other genre, Progressive Rock bands are formed by  a very high percentage of musicians have a very solid or even classical formation, guys like Wakeman or Banks who spent their childhood practicing even six or eighht hours a day instead of wasting their time.

Jeann-Luc Ponty left the school at the age of 13,  not to assault a grocery store or a gas station, but to join the Paris Conservatoire and win in two years the Premiere Prix, the highest award given by this institution.

Of course there are exceptions but even this guys took the time to study by themselves, Peter Gabriel (for example) really learned to play keyboards after he left Genesis, even when it would have been easier for him to stay with his lyrics and make catchy tunes, he decided to improve his skills in order to make better music, that's the kind of people that make Prog great.

Go with Prog Metal (A genre that's not my cup of tea), but check the background of guys as Petrucci, Rudess or Petrucci, people with a solid formation.

Progressive Rock is for prepared, talented and virtuoso musicians, people who play their own instrument (a lot of them fluid in 5 or more instruments) and not DJ's who work with turntables scratching music that other people created.

There's no way this guys could ever blend with Prog' unless they change their perspective about music.

Iván

 

Edited by ivan_2068

to concisely sum up this thread for those just joining (so you dont have to read the last 6 pages of poo)


One guy: "Progressive rap CAN indeed exist, for these good reasons which i am about to list...."

other guy: "NO it cannot!  all rappers are mindless thugs and the music means nothing!"

one guy: "yuh huh!"

other guy:  "nuh uh!"

ad infinitum...

Well we can all agree that Kenny G is the greatest prog musician of all time, and if anybody is going to combine rap and prog it might as well be him!

There is rap in prog rock, Roll the Bones by rush, good song untill the skeleton starts to sing and dance... it sorda ruined a good song