Let’s Talk About Musical Form

Snow Dog wrote: I can't believe that you Yargh have also fallen from grace with Proglover! You seemed to getting on quite well at first too!

What happened to Sideshow Bob?

Snow Dog wrote: yargh wrote: Snow Dog wrote: I can't believe that you Yargh have also fallen from grace with Proglover! You seemed to getting on quite well at first too! What happened to Sideshow Bob?   he lost his job and tried ti kill Bart!

I thought that he tried to frame Velvy, I mean Krusty

"Nobody who speaks German could be a bad person."

One of the great Simpsons lines

I would just like to clearify the statement I made in regards to Supper's Ready. Previously I had stated that Supper's Ready lacks concrete form...which I still maintain that it does. However, I went back today and I listened and observed and analyzed and basically took the piece apart. My conclusion is, that it's not as incoherent as I once thought it was. There are things which bind and tie the music together.....whithout those things the music would be lost.

However let me also state, that in the case of a piece of music such as Supper's Ready...even though the musical form is lacking, it is the overall story that binds the piece together. This is an instance, where the story actually takes precedence over the music. The story is what binds that piece together and indeed becomes more important than the music. Is this bad?...No not at all....there are plenty of pieces, which are fabulous pieces where the over-arching story is what binds it all together. This, ladies and gentlemen is the advantage of lyrics. By the way the story itself is FANTASTIC.....I love Peter Gabriel. As a side note, I have read the posts of many members on this site that claim...in progressive rock lyrical content and lyrics in genral are not of the same importance as the music......this is a wonderful example which proves that idea wrong. First of all...try telling Peter Gabriel, Peter Hammill, Jon Anderson, and Ian Anderson that their lyrics mean nothing. Now certainly I understand where such thinking comes from. We live in an age where lyrics have become so trite and certainly the music is lacking. People today seem to have a lack of respect or tolerence when it comes to purely instrumental music, in which case lyrics become almost overrated in this society. That being said, I still feel that lyrics are an extremely important part of prog music.

Without the lyrical content Supper's Ready would not stand up as an instrumental piece of music. Now for the record let me just state that I LOVE GENESIS......what an absolutely fantasitc, magical, and powerful band they were. As a stated before, for the most part....I find Genesis music to be EXTREMELY well written with impecable formal structure.....HOWEVER, Supper's Ready simply is not one of those pieces.

It starts out so wonderfully, and it contains that wonderful Genesis MAGIC...."lover's leap" is absolutely beautiful....very compact, simple and to the point, with no wasted or added anything, just crystal clear.....however after that...the music loses me. Actually no, that's not entirely true....."the guaranteed eternal sanctuary man" section is not that obtrusive to really make the listener say.."hey what's going on....what are they doing". Also Genesis segways quite nicely into that section....after which....(thankfully), they bring back the melodic theme from "lover's leap".....which is very very nice...the listener is allowed to reminisce. It ties back to what happened previously. Now...from here it officially loses focus.....great music has FOCUS.....however the saving grace for this piece is the fact that in the very end they not only recap the theme from "lover's leap", but also "the guaranteed eternal sanctuary man", but in a condense version....which is extremely well done. I must praise one thing however...the feeling that Genesis leaves you with at the end of the piece is very effective. Regardless of what happened in the middle....atleast it ends quite nicely.

Perhaps...my TRUE problem with this piece of music...is I just dont think that the musical material stands up to Genesis quality and certainly is not fit to be 20 plus minute work. However that is my opinion. I have criticized the form of the music...but I don't like the melodies, I think there are certain things which carry on for too long, and other things which dont carry on long enough. NOW PERSONALLY and this is ONLY MY OPINION.....The whole Foxtrot album is lackluster. The best piece on that album (in my opinion) is Horizons...which is an acoustic guitar piece done by Steve Hackett. ....(Watcher of the Skies is a close second).....Foxtrot lacks the magic of Nursery Cryme, Selling England By The Pound, The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, and even A Trick of the Tail , and Wind & Wuthering. But once again this is merely my opinion.

Now ladies and gentlemen this is the difference....my criticism of the formal structure of Supper's Ready is not subjective. Good form will make itself clear no matter what...a piece of music either has good form or it does not. HOWEVER...my dislike of the music IS SUBJECTIVE......to an extent...haha......

Rick Wakeman is quoted as saying...(and forgive me I am paraphrasing)...."listening to Tales From Topographic Oceans is like going through a cesspool to get to a waterlilly."......quite frankly I disagree with Mr. Wakeman....Tales is a fabulous album with solid and concrete form structure.....and I feel a quote like that is better served if used to describe Supper's Ready. No offense to all the Genesis fans, like I said I love them too...but the music at certain spots bores me. This is my two cents.  

Proglover wrote: It has been quite some time since I have actively participated in writing a thread. But after reading of the the reviews, posts, so on and so forth on this site, I felt the urge to once again grace yall with my mind..hee hee...just kidding.....but on a serious tip, it has occured to me that people whose writings deal with the structure of music or rather the musical form of a piece or song, have absolutely no idea of what they speak. I wrote a very long and extensive thread that Praised YES for their concrete song structure and economy of musical material months ago. Well since I written that thread, I have found numerous members on this site taking the very same attributes of YES music that I said made that music great and turning it around and using it to criticize and denounce YES music. So I am here to once again clear things up. First off lets get something straight right off the bat.....having ALOT of ideas, does not in anyway, mean or suggest that your music is any greater. Infact a piece of music with TOO MANY ideas is indeed a sign of weakness as far as formal structure is concerned. The fact is..you can compose a coherent, well balanced, exciting, and daring piece of music that is only based on two ideas...ONE idea if you're really good. SOOO many times I have read this garbage on this site, saying that YES music is too repetitive because it doesn't use ALOT of ideas...I want to shake these people and say..."HELLO, that's a sign of a sophisticated understanding of musical form". One of the greatest things YES ever wrote was Siberian Khatru. It's so compact, and so tightly knit. The whole song is really based on two ideas. But it's what YES does with those two ideas that make the piece wonderful. Also...when you're composing......YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RE-INVENT THE WHEEL!!!!! Sometimes it's not about doing something new...it's about taking old ideas and doing them in a way that had not been done before. The problem is, prog fans are DELUSIONAL!!!!! They actually believe that progressive rock has something to do with being "PROGRESSIVE" and "INVENTIVE".......that fact is, it couldnt be further from the truth. Prog rock has NOTHING to do with progression or invention. They're taking jazz and classical music..two forms of music which were in existence long before either of our prog heroes were born, and they're mixing OLD forms with rock music. That's NOT new...they're not inventing the wheel. There is a famous quote that reads like this...."Mediocre composers borrow....great composers STEAL".....How true a statement. Stop listening to prog rock for a while, and listen to Classical music....listen to Beethoven, listen to Bach, listen to Mozart......and you will learn TRUE musical form. When people say....YES music is too repetitive...WHICH BY THE WAY IT IS NOT!!!!!!!!!......they are really showing their complete lack of understanding when it comes to musical form. And then they turn around and say..well another piece had MORE IDEAS and therefore that makes that music better...I hang my head in shame and I think about the destruction of music education in public schools. YES music is great because IT IS FOCUSED!!!!!............HAVING TOO MANY IDEAS WILL LEAVE A VERY INCOHERENT PIECE OF MUSIC. Supper's Ready fails...because it does not stand up as a thorough and coherent piece of music. Now overall I find Genesis' music to be extremely structured and very well written. However Supper's Ready is not one of those pieces. In this respect YES were greater than Genesis, because YES were capable of maintaining a 20 plus minute piece with complete structural unity.

...........his name is also Proglover.  Kill me for this one but is this a joke (it just seems reather silly to me to challenge music by a default belief such as form)

Wizard/TRueStar wrote: I bet you would crap yourself listening to free jazz (no joke!).  Music does not have to have form at all my friend

First of ALL....I LOVE JAZZ.....infact I LOVE FREE JAZZ.....I love avant garde music.....so don't judge me...."my friend"......

cobb wrote: Proglover wrote: I must be a good boy...a good little dog...locked up in his cage....I can do nothing....yet those outside the cage are allowed to throw peanuts at the animal. But if that animal reacts..then he's "wild", "impulsive".....so I will be domesticated and drink out of your toilet bowls. That's the spirit. Shouldn't be so hard to accept the notion that peoples ideas, choices, beliefs and likes differ. You are very articulate in putting forward your ideas and some of them were good (from my point of view - not necessarily somebody else's), but you are a little unwilling to think others may have different ideas. keep proggin'

Yet it is ok for someone else to call my opinions a joke??....ahh i see how things work in this forum!!

Relax, proglover ... I think that this thread is just f**ked up, no sensible discussion seems to be possible.

Actually, I found your post about Supper's Ready quite thoughtful and interesting.