Let’s Talk About Musical Form

Also on a side note....I just want everyone to be reassured that I am not naive as to why people think the way they do, and have the feelings that they do. Music is such a tricky subject, because it is so vast and so extensive.....

And yet music is so simple that any creature on earth can get something out of it.

That can be justified by noting that sound waves affect everything - when a sound is made, vibrations are produced, and physical objects resonate.

My two year-old daughter was watching a performance of Beethoven's 9th on the TV with me - I wouldn't normally let her watch so much, but it was apparent after just a few minutes that she was really enjoying it, and laughing out loud at some events in the music that obviously affected her.

During the second movement, she became agitated, saying "No, no...", and then "Ah!...", as if suddenly making a realisation.

To cut it short, she remained riveted throughout the entire performance in a way I never have (I always seem to drift off at some point), and applauded with the audience at the end.

To get back to the point, music is only as tricky as you, the person involved in it, wants to make it.

A famous Jazz musician by the name of Wayne Shorter once said..."the word 'jazz' to me means 'no category'"......Well I'd like to take that a step further and say...that the word MUSIC to me means no category. In my mind music is undefinable. How do you correctly define a living, breathing entity....which is what music IS....Music IS a living, breathing entity.

Music is Sound organised in Time. It consists of 5 elements; Melody, Harmony, Rhythm, Form and Timbre.

You're right, of course - it's indefinable

Now once again I know why people think the way they do...in terms of composition....it's part creativity, and also part skill. Well you ask the question...how can you teach creativiy???.....Well...YOU CAN NOT teach creativity.....HOWEVER you can teach SKILL...you can teach FORM and Structure! It's just like learning math or science.....2+2=4....there is no subjectivity involved at all. There are things in music which subjectivity is NOT an issue. Something either has form or it doesnt.....something either has good form or it doesnt.....these are things which can be TAUGHT! Personal tastes aside....once again I believe that music is greater than personal tastes.

That's right - you cannot teach composition, you can only study other composer's styles of  composition and encourage creativity through the use of other people's basic ideas.

I once wrote a computer program that harmonises chorale melodies in the style of J. S. Bach. I got a starred first for it at Uni, because it worked and followed all the rules I fed it.

If I was marking that program, it would have failed for exactly that reason. The program followed the rules. Bach re-invented the rules according to 1) His taste and instincts and 2) His religious convictions. The program just used numbers and very simple "If...", "Then..." evaluations.

Some writers claim that Bach's music is the greatest music ever written because it was all written as a supplication to God - which supports your latter claim.

yargh wrote: Proglover wrote: Also on a side note....I just want everyone to be reassured that I am not naive as to why people think the way they do, and have the feelings that they do. Music is such a tricky subject, because it is so vast and so extensive..... A famous Jazz musician by the name of Wayne Shorter once said..."the word 'jazz' to me means 'no category'"......Well I'd like to take that a step further and say...that the word MUSIC to me means no category. In my mind music is undefinable. How do you correctly define a living, breathing entity....which is what music IS....Music IS a living, breathing entity. Now once again I know why people think the way they do...in terms of composition....it's part creativity, and also part skill. Well you ask the question...how can you teach creativiy???.....Well...YOU CAN NOT teach creativity.....HOWEVER you can teach SKILL...you can teach FORM and Structure! It's just like learning math or science.....2+2=4....there is no subjectivity involved at all. There are things in music which subjectivity is NOT an issue. Something either has form or it doesnt.....something either has good form or it doesnt.....these are things which can be TAUGHT! Personal tastes aside....once again I believe that music is greater than personal tastes. Beethoven's 9th fails as a piano concerto.  Does that mean it can't be a great symphony? "Forms" are just constructs invented by men, not immutable "laws" of music.  Whatever can be constructed can be de-structed and good music can lie at any place in between. The objective truth of 2+2 equalling four is not analogous to whether or not a piece of music is "good;" it is analogous to whether a piece of music is of a particular form (sonata, fugue, etc.).

I feel that you have missed my point. I was saying that FORM is not subjective, and not whether a piece of music is good or not. People please start understanding me...I feel like a broken record

Proglover wrote: yargh wrote: Proglover wrote: yargh wrote: Proglover wrote: Also on a side note....I just want everyone to be reassured that I am not naive as to why people think the way they do, and have the feelings that they do. Music is such a tricky subject, because it is so vast and so extensive..... A famous Jazz musician by the name of Wayne Shorter once said..."the word 'jazz' to me means 'no category'"......Well I'd like to take that a step further and say...that the word MUSIC to me means no category. In my mind music is undefinable. How do you correctly define a living, breathing entity....which is what music IS....Music IS a living, breathing entity. Now once again I know why people think the way they do...in terms of composition....it's part creativity, and also part skill. Well you ask the question...how can you teach creativiy???.....Well...YOU CAN NOT teach creativity.....HOWEVER you can teach SKILL...you can teach FORM and Structure! It's just like learning math or science.....2+2=4....there is no subjectivity involved at all. There are things in music which subjectivity is NOT an issue. Something either has form or it doesnt.....something either has good form or it doesnt.....these are things which can be TAUGHT! Personal tastes aside....once again I believe that music is greater than personal tastes. Beethoven's 9th fails as a piano concerto.  Does that mean it can't be a great symphony?   "Forms" are just constructs invented by men, not immutable "laws" of music.  Whatever can be constructed can be de-structed and good music can lie at any place in between. The objective truth of 2+2 equalling four is not analogous to whether or not a piece of music is "good;" it is analogous to whether a piece of music is of a particular form (sonata, fugue, etc.).  I feel that you have missed my point. I was saying that FORM is not subjective, and not whether a piece of music is good or not. People please start understanding me...I feel like a broken record No, you said that there was good music and bad music and argued when people said that this was a subjective call.  If I misunderstood your particular statement about 2+2 only being in reference to form, I'm sorry -- but I hardly put words in your mouth by assuming it meant something else.   I feel that the criteria that I am using to dexcribe good music is indeed different than your criteria.....and yes, you are misunderstanding me.

You haven't used ANY criteria to describe what you think is good music -- despite repeated requests for this golden nugget of information.  I'll ask again -- what is it?  What is this magical formula, which has eluded aesthetic philosophers lo these many centuries?  YOU said there is good music and bad music, now back it up, please, instead of going on about how you're being misunderstood.