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sleeper View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 12:46

On the evidence of the last thread that yargh got envolved with i wouldnt have classed him as one of the more intelagent members.

Unfortunatly I also happen to agree with much of what hes said here (what a disgusting thought) but im also under no illusions that he probanly also classes me as one of those of lesser inteligence.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 12:51
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

On the evidence of the last thread that yargh got envolved with i wouldnt have classed him as one of the more intelagent members.

Unfortunatly I also happen to agree with much of what hes said here (what a disgusting thought) but im also under no illusions that he probanly also classes me as one of those of lesser inteligence.

 

I have no idea who you are, but I apologize for disgusting you.  I'll try to remain more controversial in the future, so I don't disgust anybody by posting opinions similar to their own.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 13:03
Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

On the evidence of the last thread that yargh got envolved with i wouldnt have classed him as one of the more intelagent members.

Unfortunatly I also happen to agree with much of what hes said here (what a disgusting thought) but im also under no illusions that he probanly also classes me as one of those of lesser inteligence.

 

I have no idea who you are, but I apologize for disgusting you.  I'll try to remain more controversial in the future, so I don't disgust anybody by posting opinions similar to their own.

 

I dont belive it!Its only been 2 days and my first proper good argument on the forum's already been forgotten



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 13:16

Proglover wrote:

Quote I would advise you to listen to those works again.....do not throw classical music in my face cause you will not win my friend.

Let me tell you something my friend, I have listened those works hundreed if not thousand of times since I was almost a baby, I may not have a degree in music, but I have a taste, plus 5 years of Classical Piano studies and Music asignatures collateral to my carrer in the Catholic University of Perú (You may ask, it's by far the best University in this country).

But this means nothing even a school student knows that the late Romantic/ Modern Classical Musicians were famous because they broke the rules creted by musicians from Europe, rules that were considered sacred and untouchable by the Music Academics from the rest of Europe.

I may not be a self proclaimed expert as you, but I believe I heard enough music to know when an artist changes the pre existing rules.

Any person here can notice if something has no structure, because taste is not something you buy with a degree, it's something you recieve when you're born and develops with your personal experience.

Quote And as a side note..if you cant see the apparent structure of close to the edge, then theres no more I can say

Well, thanks to Tony because  this thread was reopened. So Proglover, may I ask you when did I said there was no structure in Close to the Edge?  Please quote me if you can.

Iván



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 13:39
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

On the evidence of the last thread that yargh got envolved with i wouldnt have classed him as one of the more intelagent members.

Unfortunatly I also happen to agree with much of what hes said here (what a disgusting thought) but im also under no illusions that he probanly also classes me as one of those of lesser inteligence.

 

I have no idea who you are, but I apologize for disgusting you.  I'll try to remain more controversial in the future, so I don't disgust anybody by posting opinions similar to their own.

 

I dont belive it!Its only been 2 days and my first proper good argument on the forum's already been forgotten

For shame! But don't worry Sleepy, I remember it!

 

 

..er, which thread was it?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 14:20
Originally posted by NutterAlert NutterAlert wrote:

Eyed Like to put forwerd a stronge case for me bieng one off the intellygent oness




Hey Snowy we got an applicant
Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 15:40
Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

I just edited out all the stuff I agreed with in your long post above, and finished up with the above...

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 15:47
Well, I will rest easier tonight knowing that, at the very least, I have not caused *your* stomach to turn in disgust at the prospect of agreeing with me.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 15:51
Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

Well, I will rest easier tonight knowing that, at the very least, I have not caused *your* stomach to turn in disgust at the prospect of agreeing with me.  


Should be you're surely....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 15:53

Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

Well, I will rest easier tonight knowing that, at the very least, I have not caused *your* stomach to turn in disgust at the prospect of agreeing with me.  

I said that?

 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 15:53

Ok,ok this is becoming pointless.

I would be interested if Yargh could give examples of other pieces (by other bands) that are technically well-structures/composed and of those that arent.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 15:54

Originally posted by NutterAlert NutterAlert wrote:

Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

Well, I will rest easier tonight knowing that, at the very least, I have not caused *your* stomach to turn in disgust at the prospect of agreeing with me.  


Should be you're surely....

Only if you're deliberately trying to appear unintelligent.

If that is your aim, then you may be succeeding

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 15:55
Thank you , what can you expect from someone called NutterAlert.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 16:21
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Ok,ok this is becoming pointless.

I would be interested if Yargh could give examples of other pieces (by other bands) that are technically well-structures/composed and of those that arent.

How did this become about me?  I made one response addressing the issues raised in the original post. 

At any rate, you think that this thread will be improved by my naming names on the pieces that aren't well-composed?     

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 16:32
Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Ok,ok this is becoming pointless.

I would be interested if Yargh could give examples of other pieces (by other bands) that are technically well-structures/composed and of those that arent.

How did this become about me?  I made one response addressing the issues raised in the original post. 

At any rate, you think that this thread will be improved by my naming names on the pieces that aren't well-composed?     

It's not about you, but yours was the only post in the last umpteen hours in this thread that interested me.

Of course if you feel "patronised" in some way then you dont need to oblige me.I just thought it would progress the discussion if you gave examples of "technically" well-composed and badly-composed pieces.Like you said,your observations about Suppers Ready were about the technical composition of the piece,suggesting that a piece of music can be still be a great success without being a technical success.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 16:44
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Ok,ok this is becoming pointless.

I would be interested if Yargh could give examples of other pieces (by other bands) that are technically well-structures/composed and of those that arent.

How did this become about me?  I made one response addressing the issues raised in the original post. 

At any rate, you think that this thread will be improved by my naming names on the pieces that aren't well-composed?     

It's not about you, but yours was the only post in the last umpteen hours in this thread that interested me.

Of course if you feel "patronised" in some way then you dont need to oblige me.I just thought it would progress the discussion if you gave examples of "technically" well-composed and badly-composed pieces.Like you said,your observations about Suppers Ready were about the technical composition of the piece,suggesting that a piece of music can be still be a great success without being a technical success.

Fine -- I'd nominate Focus' "Eruption" as one long-form piece that is the work of a band clearly over their heads at that stage in their development.  Not that I don't enjoy parts of it (like the guitar part in the middle).   

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 16:49

After I read, and re-read all of what was written by others and also myself, I decided to take a step back and think. I couldn't think previously because my entire person was filled with so much anger, which I will explain later on in this post. However, after re-thinking things and calming down, and once again becoming a rational human being, I have chosen to issue an apology. I have chosen to isse an apology to and ONLY to the administrators. I realize that there are rules that I must abide by when I am in the forum, and whether or not I am provoked is not the issue. I am a thinking man, who can reason, and logically choose not to give in to my somewhat instinctual desires that gravitate toward abrasive or hostile responses. This is analogous to being a guest in someone's house, and behaving in a naughty manner. So for that, I do sincerely aplogize to the administrators for my use of bad language and also the incident where I called someone an idiot. Now, I WILL NOT, however issue an aplogy to the members of this site. Because I was, after all, PROVOKED, this is another issue which I shall tackle later in depth as this post continues. There are reasons for me saying what I said, when I said them, and instead of inquiring why I said those things, it was taken by members of this site as a means to rape and pillage my words. I was called "elitist", I was called "pompous", I was called "arrogant", so on and so forth. These comments came as a result of my ORIGINAL post. This was before I went into a tirade. I find those words to be utterly offensive, which is why I reacted the way I did. Those words unleashed the beast. I also became angry, because I hate to be associated with motives or aims that are NOT my intent. My intent was not how many saw it, and I become extremely defensive when others accuse me of having objectives which are not in the slightest case, true. Along with that, another reason why I became so infuriated is because as always, members on this site where not hearing what I was saying. I hate to be misunderstood, which happens alot to me....I suppose I should just learn the lesson and not get angry when I am misunderstood...however until that moment in my life is realized, I guess I will continue to lose my temper when I am. I became fustrated because I found it a struggle to allow people to see where I was coming from. Inspite of all I did, it seemed that people were more content with tearing me down, instead of trying to understand me. To add to this crazy fustration, I had not had the physical time to actually sit down and collect my thoughts, and fully explain myself, so my responses where of great haste and very much in the moment of my rage.

Now, I would just like to focus on an issue here. Which is my use of bad language. I have already apologized to the adminstrators for the use of such, however I refuse to allow ANYONE to make me feel bad, or guilty for the use of that language. I do not apologize for my beliefs, I do not apologize for the things that I stand for, and I will not apologize for defending myself, especially when gang warfare is involved. On a side note, another factor that is involved in losing my temper, is that I detest being ganged up on. If I am cornered I will come out fighting. Yet people on this site seem to feel the need to gang up on a member...to avoid future confrontations....perhaps someone should advise that, that's not a good idea. Now back to the matter at hand. Once again I do not feel bad for losing my temper. Contrary to the old wives tale....the use the bad language is not a sign of diminished intelligence. There are plenty of brilliant, highly educated people who curse all the time. Also losing ones temper...simply means that one has a problem controlling their temper, and once again does not suggest that one is not intelligent. Beethoven, for example, had a RUTHLESS temper, a vile and quite frankly VIOLENT temper....and Beethoven was a GENIUS. Now certainly Im not comparing myself to Beethoven. I am no where near the musician that Beethoven was and I will never be, however it is a perfect example of someone who did have a terrible temper but once again with no reflection on their intelligence.

Moving on.......first off, let me state....I LOVE MUSIC. MUSIC IS MY LIFE. It is something that I have dedicated my existence to. Music to me, is more than just a forum, it is more than entertainment, it is more than prog rock, it is LIFE. It is the most important thing to me, and I honor it, and I cherish it, and I worship it. It is my blood. The connection that I have to music is personal and emotional. Yes, I do have strong beliefs when it comes to music. As someone once referred to it....a "dogma" of sorts. Which is fine. I suppose I do have a dogmatic thought process when music is concerned. I view art and music as sacred as religion. This is the foundation of what I feel is the truth. And like religion, I believe that there is absolute truth in music. One of those truths is FORM....now moving on past that point, which I shall come back to later.....I am a musician....I am living and breathing music in my daily life. Music is not a hobby, its not something I do in my spare time...I eat, sleep, and breathe it. So, with all due respect...while many of you are in the process of listening to music, and talking about music....I am in the business of creating music, of producing music, I am in the thick of things. I am in the heat of battle constantly from day to day. I work my tail off trying to become the very best that I can. I take what I do very seriously, and I honor it....so when people disrepect my life...I get angry. Now, perhaps it is a bit unfair of me to expect everyone to hold music and art in the same regard that I do, which I completely and totally understand. However that being said, I truly feel that there is a lack of caring in American society where art is concerned. The problem is, many people just do not seem to realize just how important music is. It is VITAL to our culture. Every great civilization realized the power and potential of music. Yet today in American society people are completely indifferent....and yes that upsets me.

I dont have a problem with law or medicine as one member suggested. Those were merely examples of what Americans put above art. Can I blame them? Yes and no. I had stated that I view art as being equally as important as being a doctor or a lawyer. That statement got everyone in an uproar. Infact, to push the envelope a bit further, I would like to state that being a musician, is one of the most noble things a person can do with his or her life. Infact, let us go a bit deeper. I place being a musician indeed even a more noble and higher goal than most things on this earth. Now I do realize that such thinking may seem foolish to others, but those who see differently....I'm not saying that they are wrong, however I am saying that they dont see the true importance of music. Which I feel is gained through education and exposure. Now just as a side note....I fully am aware that all of you are very intelligent people. However people tend to be, which is the nature of human beings, better or more educated in certain things than in others. This is something that I will not back down from...in this country there is a huge lack of good, concrete music education. Unfortunately it's getting worse. Now the question, is does an education mean that you would understand that music better. And my response to that is... 9 times out of 10 YES.....ladies and gentlemen, whether you want to realize it or not....there is indeed an academic side to music...just like science, like math, like history, like english.....all of the subjects which we study in school music in this regard to no different. We study to learn math, we study to learn science...why should music be any different?

Now certainly I also realize, and this to me is what makes music one of the highest things in our world.....that music is not ONLY academic, but it is passion, it's power, it's artistic......Music is math, music is science, music is history, music is ART.....music is BOTH a left brain and a right brain activity. I am saying this because many of you accused me of only believing that music should ONLY be a set of strict rules, and purely academic. Certainly it is not, and I would never even begin to believe such. Having art in an academic situtation, is both positive and negative. I have mixed feelings on the topic. But I do believe that music is so vastly extensive that it covers a huge amount of ground.

Now on the topic of breaking rules and adhearing to those rules....I wrote a post which people convieniently ignored...so I am forced to throw it back in your faces. I mentioned Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven. Possibly three of if not THE three greatest composers to set foot on this earth. All three of those composers wrote within form and structure, and rules. Now certainly being creative beings, they also did break the rules at times. However you must look at where, how, and when those rules are broken. Beethoven breaks the rules ONLY because he knew those rules backwards and forwards. In order to break the rules you must know the rules!! Beethoven knew what he was breaking, and perhaps the most important thing to know....is that Beethoven had a reason for breaking those rules...whether it was creative or compositional...there was always a REASON as to why he broke the rules....and even within the act of doing so....still remained in a tight formal structure. Bach and Mozart also broke the rules at times, but as I said, there was a reason and a cause as to why they did. They did NOT decided to arbitrarily BREAK RULES because they felt like it. Although in the case of Beethoven one could quite possibly make an argument for the opposite.

Now as far as me being pompous.....first off, lets state that I take very highly my education...and I do not believe it was in vain. YES, I did mention that I was a music student, attending one of the best music schools in NYC.....I can see how that could come off as being arrogant or self-worshipping. But I assure you, it indeed was not meant to be that way. The reason why I took the time to mention my background, is to give credibility to my arguement. I wanted to let people know that I was not just some rugrat off the street talking out of his ass, that I did indeed have some credentials behind my statement. It's like....when you're in school, and the assignment is to write a paper, part of the paper is citing sources that back up your argument and give credibility to what you are saying. That's all I was doing. I was not implying that I am better than anyone else, I was not implying that any of you were dumb or uneducated, I was simply trying to give my argument a foundation. NOW...with that being said....I do have a degree in music composition.....and contrary to what many of you think....I DO know what I am talking about. Now, does the fact that I have a degree mean that my opinion is of any more value than yours??......absolutely not!!!! I am not one to let my degree talk for me...I talk for myself....I put in a lot of hard work people....and once again...I do know what I am talking about. Music is a craft......you go to school to learn a craft. A craft is not subjective. It is what it is.

On the lines of subjectivity. This is another aspect that I will not back down from. I do not believe that music is subjective. Like I said before, there are two types of music....GOOD and BAD....now once again, before people start jumping down my throat.....I would like to point out..that the great Duke Ellington said that....Duke Ellington stated that there are only two types of music...good and bad...and I wholeheartedly agree. This goes back to what I was saying about absolute truth in music, or my "dogma" as someone stated......there are things that I hold self evident to be TRUE...and this is one of them. Disagree me if you want......which I'm sure you will.

This is not the ideology of Proglover....this is not a shrine built on the foundation of MY THOUGHTS......this is academics, this is teaching that has evolved for hundreds and hundreds of years. These are not my thoughts. If you disagree with some of the things that I have said, then you are also disagreeing with most of the musical world.....which is fine....it's a free country. Just know...what it is. Do not attack me and make it seem like I am imposing my beliefs on you. It is simply not true.

I hope that I have made myself a bit clearer...I know that I am leaving things out...but there are just so many things floating around in my mind that hey are beginning to escape me...also I am getting very tired. So I will leave this post as it is.....and consequently await the responses.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 16:58

It's true.  There are two types of music: good and bad.

But what falls into each category is entirely up to the listener.

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 17:08

I dont want to throw fuel on the fire here,but I have a very good degree in English Literature.Most of my academic career I managed to avoid Dickens,Austen,Hardy,The Brontes,Virginia Woolf,Hawthorne and even Hemingway.I know a lot about certain periods of English/American Literature but relatively little if the whole of classic and modern literature is taken into account.

It is the same with any subject,anyone claiming to be a total authority across the whole spectrum is kidding themselves.I  would bet good money that there are people on this site who have no qualifications in Literature but have far superior knowledge than me on many famous authors.


 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2005 at 17:10
That was a very heartfelt clarification, Proglover, and I apologise for any slight I may have done to you. I think a lot of us may have misread the intent of your initial post.
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