Prog Metal: Organizing the categories

Okay, here are some more thoughts (what else to do with my spare time, I have about 25min left before I need to head for the station):

Borknagar - move this one from the Power/Heavy section to Extreme. It's closer to the bands in that subgenre than to the ones in Power/Heavy.

(not included as progmetal at all, in the archives as art rock) Kopecky. This band is definitely metal to my ears, I'd say symphonic.

Aina - move this one to the power/heavy section, simply because it is (officially) power metal and it has a lot of similarities with the standards in that genre (just compare it to the likes of Edguy, a band that has some prog tendencies by the way)

Digital Ruin - maybe Experimental? It certainly has space rock influences... but I'm not an expert on this band, I must admit

Dan Swanö - He's fine in the Neo ProgMetal categorie I think, the only thing that makes it vary from the rest is the grunt vocals, but it is very neo prog metal

Green Carnation - No orchestral at least, they definitely could fit in the Power/Heavy section, but looking at their Light of Day album, I'd also say it could be experimental...

Power of Omens - This is definitely extreme. Their music is very difficult to get used to, because of the major complexity.

That's it for now, I'm off for today (going to see Oceansize live in a couple of hourse, but have to travel 2 hr's to get there )

Cheers,

- Tristan

W.Chuck wrote: does not work

Fixed

http://www.infoclub.com.np/entertain/music/hollywood/htmfile /lesserknown/wyzards.html

Kohllapse wrote: W.Chuck wrote: does not work Fixed http://www.infoclub.com.np/entertain/music/hollywood/htmfile /lesserknown/wyzards.html

Where would you put them? Based on that sample and the description, I would rather move them to Art Rock.

^ Ivan: I don't think that Symphonic Prog is the fusion of Rock and classical genres ... far from it. It rather is the principles of classical composition applied to Rock.

About Folk: philippe and Erik are far more knowledgable about that genre ... but from what I've heard it would be more suitable to have an Ethno Prog genre for "Folk" bands from other roots than what is commonly known as Folk.

About the birth of Prog Metal: It was far earlier than the first official releases by Dream Theater. Prog Metal dates back to at least 1986, with the first releases by Fates Warning and Queensryche. Depending on where you draw the line between Proto-Prog Metal (Metal with Prog influences) and "real" Prog Metal it even goes back as early as 1980.

Mike wrote:

^ Ivan: I don't think that Symphonic Prog is the fusion of Rock and classical genres ... far from it. It rather is the principles of classical composition applied to Rock.

Mike please.........it's exactly the same thing but in other words. Classical music is the main influence of Symphonic and that's the point, you and I know it, we can change the words but it's exactly the same thing.

If you apply the principles of Classical Music to Rock, you're making a union of both genres, it's obvious, but if you want, use your own words.

If you listen Close to the Edge or Watcher of the Slkes you will find Baroque keyboard solos played by Wakeman and Banks that could have easily been made by Johan Sebastian Bach...Isn't that a fusion????

If you listen Piano Concerto N° 1, The Enemy God Dances with the Black Spirits or Pictures at an Ehhibition don't you notice they are making a fusion between Rachmaninoff, Janacek and Mussorgsky with Rock in each case????

At the end of Journey to the Centre of the Earth Rick Wakeman plays In the Hall of the Mountain King from the Peer Gynt Suite by Grieg, Isn't that a fusion of Classical and Rock?

But Classical is a very wide term, it applies to music from the late XI Century to XXI Century, we're talking about almost 1,000 years of influence all in one genre, for God's sake Metal doesn't have four decades and you're creating several sub-genres.

The Medieval Trouvadore's music has nothing in Common with Tchaikovski or Rachmaninoff, Bach has very small connections with lets say Wagner (Even when both are almost from the same period).

Mike wrote:

About Folk: philippe and Erik are far more knowledgable about that genre ... but from what I've heard it would be more suitable to have an Ethno Prog genre for "Folk" bands from other roots than what is commonly known as Folk.

Surely they know more than me about some Folk or Ethnic music, but Ok, change the name, Still what's the common ethnic and/or musical connection between Peruvian - Chiilean Music from the Pre-Hispanic era, Celtic Medieval Music, and Greelk Orthodox Canonic music (Jaivas, Strawbs and Aphrodite's Child)??? Can they be in the same genre???

Probably NO would be the answer to both questions, but can we create a sub genre for each ethnia and/or country (As you're trying to do with the different Metal sub-genres), the answer is again no.

There must be another solution and together we can find it.

Mike wrote:

About the birth of Prog Metal: It was far earlier than the first official releases by Dream Theater. Prog Metal dates back to at least 1986, with the first releases by Fates Warning and Queensryche. Depending on where you draw the line between Proto-Prog Metal (Metal with Prog influences) and "real" Prog Metal it even goes back as early as 1980.

I never claimed to be an expert in Prog Metal, but again you're creating a new sub-sub-genre (Proto Prog Metal), this sub-sub-genres are artificiall, because you're using Metal and Progressive Rock categories and transporting them to Prog Metal, where they don't belong.

But I still believe the pioneers of Prog Metal could be found before 1980 with the already mentioned band as Led Zep, UH and DP.

It seems hat there are different rules for Progressive Rock and Progressive metal bands:

1. If you find a Progressive Rock band that you can't include in any place, lump them in Art Rock, there's always room for one more, nobody cares if they have nothing in common with the rest.
2. If you find a Prog Metal band that you can't include in any place, create a new sub-sub-genre for them, they deserve to have their individuality recognized.

Iván

King of loss wrote:

But however with Mr. Ivan's saying of how Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin are the first innovators of Prog Metal, which is totally untrue. These bands were not even Metal, but rather Hard Rock. For me, the birth of Prog Metal started at around the early- mid 80s with bands like Queensryche, Watchtower and Fates Warning.

a)      I said I’m not an expert on Prog Metal.

b)      When I don’t know something well I try to learn by reading opinions of people who know more than me.

c)      Serious Progressive Rock pages as Progressive Ears, Gibraltar Encyclopedia of Progressive Rock, Progressor etc. name Uriah Heep, Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin as the first pioneers of Prog Metal.

d)      Your escapism techniques are better than Houdini’s, the main point of my post is not when Prog Metal was born, but you choose just a comment or personal opinion to discredit my opinion.

e)      You said: “For me the birth of Prog Metal started around the early mid 80’s (early mid 80’s strange term BTW, are we talking about early, mid or late 80’s?), well for GEPR, Progressor and Progressive Ears started with the bands I mentioned, it’s a matter of opinions.

Go back to the main point and don’t use a simple comment by a non Prog Metal expert (Who recognizes this) to seem wiser.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Mike wrote: ^ Ivan: I don't think that Symphonic Prog is the fusion of Rock and classical genres ... far from it. It rather is the principles of classical composition applied to Rock. Mike please.........it's exactly the same thing but in other words. Classical music is the main influence of Symphonic and that's the point, you and I know it, we can change the words but it's exactly the same thing. If you apply the principles of Classical Music to Rock, you're making a union of both genres, it's obvious, but if you want, use your own words. If you listen Close to the Edge or Watcher of the Slkes you will find Baroque keyboard solos played by Wakeman and Banks that could have easily been made by Johan Sebastian Bach...Isn't that a fusion???? Listen to Deep Purple - concerto for group and orchestra, and you'll see the difference. One is merely putting together a rock band and an orchestra, the other is composing rock songs with the same complexity that classical music uses.

Oh come on, Mike, that's overdoing it a little! Not even Gentle Giant, who are arguably one of the most complex bands in prog, even come close to the complexity of classical music.