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Tristan Mulders View Drop Down
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Points: 1723 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 05:18

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Arcturus: They can be pretty extreme, but their newer albums are more Avant-Garde/Experimental. But IMO their approach isn't really symphonic, I think they should stay inthe "red" area. But neither of my genres is demeaning, it's not like the symphonic section is better than the others. There are brilliant band in all the genres.

I do understand your point of view, I've just put La Masquerade Infernale in my cd player and I have to say you're right about the extreme part. The name 'extreme' just sends me shivers down my spine you know. When hearing that I almost immediatly think of a band like e.g. Nile... whereas I think something like Arcturus is far too artistic to be called extreme. But looking at the complexity of the music I can understand it's more extremer to get used to than e.g. the likes of Dream Theater. (I mean Arcturus features screams, grunts, heavy guitar, weird sounds ala Fantômas, and drumcomputers )

So, just leave it in the extreme category and good luck with the rest, I'll try to take another look at it tomorrow, I'm off learning some exams and this evening I'm at a gig of OCEANSIZE so I have a couple of better things to do now, eh haha

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Points: 21138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 05:47
Originally posted by Citanul Citanul wrote:

I've been thinking about this, and wonder if maybe an alternative is to split prog-metal into two categories: one comprising of what is at the moment the Avant/Experimental and Extreme categories, and the other one combing the Orchestral, Power, Neo and Symphonic categories.

There are a number of reasons for this:
  • It's been pointed out that Dream Theater and Meshuggah don't really belong in the same genre.  I would agree with this, and therefore support the idea of a split.  My proposed split would retain this notion (ie separating Dream Theater and Meshuggah).
  • The dividing line between Power, Neo and Symphonic isn't that clearcut, and it can be difficult to decide where a band belongs.  Combing all three would ease this problem.
    We already combine Neo and Symphonic because of that reason. Orchestral and Power will also be combined. Between those two (Neo/Symphonic and Orchestral/Power) there are many easily recognizable differences. 
  • The definition of Orchestral is also a bit tricky.  I'm not sure how many of the bands there actually make that much use of classical music - I don't hear it in Saviour Machine or Anathema. (Anathema has been moved to Avant) There are also bands in the Power, Neo and Symphonic categories that incoporate classical elements.  (not in the neo or symphonic category. Occasional passages are not the criterium - the question is whether a band - or album - is based on that style) This means that either the definition of Orchestral needs to be changed (and there could also be confusion between the terms "Symphonic" and "Orchestral" Read the descriptions - maybe YOU confuse them?), or as I propose, the Orchestral bands become combined with the other groups.  I realise that the bands labelled as Orchestral don't necessarily sound that similar to the other groups, but I think the difference isn't as great as those in the Avant or Extreme categories. It may not be as great, but it is a very important difference. Therion or Rhapsody are really good examples. They are always accused of not being progressive, and in a way those people are right - they are merely fusing metal and classical. Very different to bands like Pain of Salvation or Payne's Gray, or also the melodic (neo) bands like Dream Theater or Shadow Gallery. 
  • When people talk about prog-metal, it's usually in reference to the bands in the Power, Neo, Symphonic and Orchestral groups, and not really the Avant or Extreme groups.  I don't think so - Opeth and Tool are very important and popular Prog Metal bands, and even in the Extreme genre there are some bands that are regarded as masterpieces of Prog Metal (e.g. Cynic - Focus) which influenced various other bands - even those in other genres. In fact the majority of people who call themselves as prog-metal fans aren't fans of the Avant of Extreme groups in general.  Maybe a poll could shed some light on this. I DO believe that the Orchestral, Power and Extreme genres are those which are least accessible for prog rock fans who are looking for an entry point into the prog metal world. Neo/Symphonic/Avant is more accessible. Making this split helps to give fans of the more standard prog-metal an indication of which groups they're unlikely to like, and gives fans of the more unusual prog-metal an idea of which bands they would be interesting in, rather than having to go through a long list of more normal bands who they may not enjoy.
  • This propsed split means the creation of one extra category - Extreme/Avant Prog Metal (OK, the name may have to be worked on ), something which those in opposition to the subdivision of prog-metal would probably find more agreeable.

I know that a lot of hard work has been put into creating these categories, but I think my proposed spilt is one that will be more generally acceptable - a compromise between leaving the prog-metal category as it is, and splitting it into several different categories.

I designed my categories so that they can be grouped ... so we have can now choose which categories to group together. Sure, I though about just splitting Prog Metal into two categories - extreme and normal. But I'd really like to also separate Orchestral/Symphonic, too. And whether Avant/Experimental will become a separate category ... we'll see.
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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 06:11
I must say I am a little disappointed. I had defended the right for prog-metal to be discussed on the main board, but it seems to me that the prog-metal fans are now trying to take over this site. "Die ich rief, die Geister, werd' ich nun nicht los!", to quote Goethe's famous poem about the magician's apprentice. while I see that there may be the necessity to reorganize prog-meal, there is one reproach I have to deal out to Mike: the correct way to go about a reorganisation of genrés would have been the following: propose a general reorganisation of genrés and volunteer for Prog-Metal. the excuse of Mike that he is not qualified to undertake the reorganisation of a genré like "Symphonic" is quite feeble; no-one is an expert everywhere. the way Mike went about it I have to go with the assessment of Ivan, who diagnosed an inferiority complex

Edited by BaldJean


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Points: 21138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 06:15

^ Jean, I have been asked to do this. And once the decision is made to actually do something, it makes no sense IMO to tip toe around, asking for everbody's approval, wait for feedback etc..

If you think that I have an inferiority complex ... fine, think what you want. I think that you're just angry that some things might happen on this website with which you don't agree. You even try to portray yourself as the saviour of Prog Metal ... sound a bit phony to me.



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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 06:16
^  Thats a below the belt and unnecessary comment Bj....maybe its you suffering from the complex?
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Points: 606 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 06:22
I like this idea and this index is really great

BUT...

1. DARK SUNS do NOT belong in the POWER-SECTION.
    I think you should assign them to the
    SYMPHONIC-SECTION

2. The bands you haven't assigned yet...
    I don't know all of them but some:

    Abydos - Neo
    Clockwork - Neo
    Fig Leaf - Non-Metal
    Ivanhoe - Power
    Section A - Neo

(and... Dark Suns - Symphonic)


Furthermore add them please:

Illusion Suite - Neo
Derek   Sherinian - Avant/Experimental?
Mindscape  -  Power
Sanity   -   Power

Thanks!

So that is my Opinion...

good luck with this project! nice idea!


Edited by W.Chuck

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Citanul View Drop Down
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Points: 430 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 06:23
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

  • The dividing line between Power, Neo and Symphonic isn't that clearcut, and it can be difficult to decide where a band belongs.  Combing all three would ease this problem.
    We already combine Neo and Symphonic because of that reason. Orchestral and Power will also be combined. Between those two (Neo/Symphonic and Orchestral/Power) there are many easily recognizable differences.


I think there is some overlap between Neo and Power - from what I've heard of Pagan's Mind, Conception and Circus Maximus, I would classify them as power.  Although haven't heard much by those bands, and if someone more familiar with them decides that they're Neo, I won't disagree.

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  • The definition of Orchestral is also a bit tricky.  I'm not sure how many of the bands there actually make that much use of classical music - I don't hear it in Saviour Machine or Anathema. (Anathema has been moved to Avant) There are also bands in the Power, Neo and Symphonic categories that incoporate classical elements.  (not in the neo or symphonic category. Occasional passages are not the criterium - the question is whether a band - or album - is based on that style)


OK, I'll accept that, although I'm still not convinced Saviour Machine should be there.

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  • This means that either the definition of Orchestral needs to be changed (and there could also be confusion between the terms "Symphonic" and "Orchestral" Read the descriptions - maybe YOU confuse them?)


What I meant is that someone seeing the names, without the descriptions might not understand what the difference between Orchestral and Symphonic is - those terms are closely linked, and to use both of them together could lead to some confusion.

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  • or as I propose, the Orchestral bands become combined with the other groups.  I realise that the bands labelled as Orchestral don't necessarily sound that similar to the other groups, but I think the difference isn't as great as those in the Avant or Extreme categories. It may not be as great, but it is a very important difference. Therion or Rhapsody are really good examples. They are always accused of not being progressive, and in a way those people are right - they are merely fusing metal and classical. Very different to bands like Pain of Salvation or Payne's Gray, or also the melodic (neo) bands like Dream Theater or Shadow Gallery.


I agree that there is a difference, but there is a greater difference regarding the Extreme/Avant bands, which I feel is more important.  And if Rhapsody are fusing metal and classical, shouldn't they be Orchestral as opposed to Power?

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  • When people talk about prog-metal, it's usually in reference to the bands in the Power, Neo, Symphonic and Orchestral groups, and not really the Avant or Extreme groups.  I don't think so - Opeth and Tool are very important and popular Prog Metal bands, and even in the Extreme genre there are some bands that are regarded as masterpieces of Prog Metal (e.g. Cynic - Focus) which influenced various other bands - even those in other genres.


There are a few exceptions such as Opeth, Tool and Cynic, but I still stand by my statement

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  • In fact the majority of people who call themselves as prog-metal fans aren't fans of the Avant of Extreme groups in general.  Maybe a poll could shed some light on this. I DO believe that the Orchestral, Power and Extreme genres are those which are least accessible for prog rock fans who are looking for an entry point into the prog metal world. Neo/Symphonic/Avant is more accessible.


I'm not sure if the Avant bands are that much more accessible than the Orchestral bands, and the Power bands are fairly accessible if you're prepared to accept the metal aspects.

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I designed my categories so that they can be grouped ... so we have can now choose which categories to group together. Sure, I though about just splitting Prog Metal into two categories - extreme and normal. But I'd really like to also separate Orchestral/Symphonic, too. And whether Avant/Experimental will become a separate category ... we'll see.



Maybe it should be done in stages.  There's been a fair amount of opposition to your proposed split, but if it was just splitting extreme and normal, then I think that would be acceptable.  At some later point you could try the other splits (although I'm still not convinced they're absolutely necessary).


Edited by Citanul
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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 06:27
I had not known Mike had been asked to do this, else I would not have said this about the "inferiority complex"; I hereby retract it. still I think the procedure is not right though, and in a way I think it is even worse that way, because a genré like "Symphonic", as Friede already pointed out, is much more in need of such a reorganisation. why was no-one asked to tackle that?


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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 06:30
If you read the thread Bj all the answers are there. If any one is willing to reorganise other genres they may seek permission to do so.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 06:42

I read the whole thread, and I don't see an answer, to be honest. anyway, I will volunteer for re-organising Kraut, though there will be some difficulty to put Guru Guru into any category; they completely changed style with almost every album (Guru Guru are a perfect example for why I would much prefer to add categories to albums and not bands; their albums range from absolute free-form experiments ("UFO") to a kind of space-hard rock ("Hinten") to fusion a la Mahavshnu ("Dance of the Flames") to funk ("Jungle") to almost pop ("Lurchi's Neue Abenteuer") and even rock'n roll (Guru Guru '88")). and I would still much prefer the possibilty of artists belonging to more than one genré to this introduction of sub-categories. Friede already pointed out what this sub-categories will lead to, and the reason for this is quite simple: it is the attempt to force a tree-like structure on something that is not tree-shaped



Edited by BaldJean


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Points: 21138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 06:51

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I had not known Mike had been asked to do this, else I would not have said this about the "inferiority complex"; I hereby retract it. still I think the procedure is not right though, and in a way I think it is even worse that way, because a genré like "Symphonic", as Friede already pointed out, is much more in need of such a reorganisation. why was no-one asked to tackle that?

This is how things evolved:

  • About two months ago a thread was started by king16 about Prog Metal. There we spoke - among other things - about a reorganisation of the genre.
  • I spoke about the matter in some thread last week - can't remember which one.
  • On Saturday Tony contacted me and asked me if I would be willing to reorganise the genre - and I accepted.
  • Then I created a thread (only visible for collabs) similar to this one, asking for help and feedback.
  • By Tuesday evening the categories had become fairly stable, and I decided to "go public" with this idea, by starting this thread.

Regarding your question "why wasnt anyone ask to tackle Symphonic Prog?" ... well, it's a daunting task and will even cause much more "turbulence" than regorganising metal. If you had started a thread discussing how it could be reorganised and proposed a rough idea of how to do it, I'm sure that Tony would have asked you like he asked me.



Edited by MikeEnRegalia
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 06:53
I'm sure its mentioned somewhere that Mike has Max and Progluckyy's blessing, maybe I should read the thread!
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 06:56
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I had not known Mike had been asked to do this, else I would not have said this about the "inferiority complex"; I hereby retract it. still I think the procedure is not right though, and in a way I think it is even worse that way, because a genré like "Symphonic", as Friede already pointed out, is much more in need of such a reorganisation. why was no-one asked to tackle that?

This is how things evolved:

  • About two months ago a thread was started by king16 about Prog Metal. There we spoke - among other things - about a reorganisation of the genre.
  • I spoke about the matter in some thread last week - can't remember which one.
  • On Saturday Tony contacted me and asked me if I would be willing to reorganise the genre - and I accepted.
  • Then I created a thread (only visible for collabs) similar to this one, asking for help and feedback.
  • By Tuesday evening the categories had become fairly stable, and I decided to "go public" with this idea, by starting this thread.

Regarding your question "why wasnt anyone ask to tackle Symphonic Prog?" ... well, it's a daunting task and will even cause much more "turbulence" than regorganising metal. If you had started a thread discussing how it could be reorganised and proposed a rough idea of how to do it, I'm sure that Tony would have asked you like he asked me.

but since you obviously spent some time and a few brain cells thinking about this matter, don't you agree that a tree-structure is not the solution to the problem, and that we should tackle the problem differently?


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Points: 12625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 07:00

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

I'm sure its mentioned somewhere that Mike has Max and Progluckyy's blessing, maybe I should read the thread!

As I have followed this debate closely and with great interest I can testify that you are right, it was indeed written. Don't read now everything again...Although it would not be as hard as doing what Mike has done (which I salute for the time and effort, regardless of my opinion on the matter).
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Points: 21138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 07:08

It is a flat structure, not a tree structure. Of course you can think of it this way:

  • Rock
    • Prog Rock
      • Symphonic Prog Rock
      • Canterbury
      • ...
    • Metal
      • Prog Metal
        • Orchestral/Power Prog Metal
        • Neo/Symphonic Prog Metal
        • Avant/Experimental Prog Metal
        • Extreme Prog Metal
    • Jazz-Fusion

This is how I see the "theoretical structure", and I guess this is also why you and Ivan attack me saying that if things look that way, Prog Metal should be removed (as it is not a child of Prog Rock). But the world is more complex than such a structure.

I prefer this flat approach:

  • Symphonic Prog Rock
  • Canterbury
  • ... (10 other Prog Rock genres)
  • Jazz-Fusion
  • Orchestral/Power Prog Metal
  • Neo/Symphonic Prog Metal
  • Avant/Experimental Prog Metal
  • Extreme Prog Metal

Of course I see the problem - "Symphonic" is appearing twice, as well as Avant, Experimental and Neo.

My personal opinion is that it would be better to "tag" artists and albums. Think of it as a big list of checkboxes:

  • Dream Theater: Neo, Symphonic, Avant, Metal, Neoclassical, ...
  • Van der Graaf Generator: Symphonic, Avant, Fusion, Experimental, ...
  • ...

But if you want to do this properly, you'll end up with a system like Gnosis have. It's very flexible, but most people don't understand it. And in this case I prefer the KISS approach (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Also, listing Pain of Salvation in Symphonic among Genesis or Gentle Giant just because they combine that style with metal ... seems awkward to me.

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Points: 16435 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 07:14
^ Good idea, Mike! Putting bands into overlapping subgenres
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Points: 389 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 07:46

Sorry, I kind of missed the discussion over here.

Can someone please make a summary of the last 12 pages of posts?

 
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 07:46
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

 Also, listing Pain of Salvation in Symphonic among Genesis or Gentle Giant just because they combine that style with metal ... seems awkward to me.

it seems to me that you are just "flattening" the tree by removing all levels and just listing them side by side, so we will have at least about 30 genrés to choose from. I fear this will confuse the viewers of this site even more than the system of Gnosis, to be honest



Edited by BaldJean


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Points: 21138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 07:52
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

 Also, listing Pain of Salvation in Symphonic among Genesis or Gentle Giant just because they combine that style with metal ... seems awkward to me.

well, with the idea you have it is pretty well possible that bands that in fact are very much alike will wind up in 2 completely different branches of the tree. the person who added band A, for example, valued the symphonic aspect of the band more than the metal aspect and put the band into "symphonic". the person who added band B, which is quite similar to band A, valued the metal aspect more and put them into metal. this will not happen if a band can belong to more than one genré. and actually you need not fear that Pain of Salvation could be confused with Genesis, because obvioulsy PoS have the "metal" tag assigned too

IMO every album has a predominant genre. There are bands which mix everything ... those are mostly either Avant-Garde or Experimental. So rather than listing every single genre that is used (e.g. "Song 5 also features Jazz-Fusion from time index 4:35 to 5:58") I would rather try to determine the predominant genre and leave it at that. Of course it would make much more sense on the album level, but it's really possible to determine that genre level on the band level also, it simply is less accurate. But putting Van der Graaf Generator into an Avant/Experimental genre is not far from the truth, even if they also played some Symphonic or Fusion.
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Points: 35 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2005 at 07:57
I like the things Citanul has said, he makes a lot of sense imo.
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