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oliverstoned 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
 Posted: September 02 2005 at 12:56 |
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Let's talk about serious sources...
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 13:00 |
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Here's mine:
(naka 1000) 
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philippe
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 14 2004 Location: noosphere Status: Offline Points: 3597 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 13:08 |
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ça s'enflamme ici!!! long life to the vinyl source
 Edited by philippe |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21196 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 14:05 |
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That's insane. It leads NOWHERE. I can enjoy music even on a crappy mobile radio ... I listen to music, not perfect sound. I even agree that vinyl CAN sound superior to digital media. But the topic of the thread was to compare HiFi CD players to digital media played on the computer and transported to the amp via digital connection. So oliverstoned: What is the definite explanation for the CD player being superior to the digital signal from the computer? I'm talking about facts, like something from a scientific study ... something better than "come here and listen for yourself". |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 14:39 |
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Mike, can you answer my previous question please!
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21196 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 15:07 |
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Snow Dog: Was it this question? WMA Lossless is really great ... there are other lossless formats than WMA Lossless, and their quality is identical - a perfect copy of the CD. If you fancy an iPod, you can also choose Apple Lossless ... |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 15:11 |
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^ ah....you did answer my question. I'm really sorry, I didn't see it! many appologies Mike!
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 15:13 |
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Well said Philippe!
I dedicated you this pic of a classic turntable: Linn LP12 
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 15:17 |
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Vinyl pops and crackles too much!
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21196 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 15:18 |
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No need to apologize - the post was easy to miss next to these magnificent images of unaffordable mysterious devices. BTW: I'm listening to Porcupine Tree - In Absentia in WMA Lossless right now, and - wow! What a difference to ANY mp3 format. |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 15:19 |
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[QUOTE=MikeEnRegalia]
That's insane. It leads NOWHERE. I can enjoy music even on a crappy mobile radio ... I listen to music, not perfect sound. I even agree that vinyl CAN sound superior to digital media. Good. It's not insane, cause figure that you loose half of the music. It's the magic of hifi: you'll re discover records you have listen to hundreds of times: you will discover instruments you have never heard on pieces you believe toknow by heart, hidden details, it's better than the fisr time you heard the music! isn't it good? |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 15:29 |
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Yes I tried it out earlier today on a Zappa track, before I read this, and the difference was noticable. Hardly worth the effort for me though as I have a pretty basic PC set up! |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 15:31 |
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...you want scientific theory?
There's one which says that tubes amps are less good than transistor ones cause the distorsion rate is higher. "Unfortunatly" (for this theory), it's the contrary when you listen. Ther's another theory which talk about pair and unpair harmonics, and this one match with the results. So, that may be an explanation of tube's superiority. Eventually, only result matter. There are many reasons which explain that a computer can't be a good source. You want to compare top notch cd like mine with a crappy computer? A little musical cd player like this one already explodes any computer. And my CD explodes this little player. So, it's mathematic... 
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21196 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 15:31 |
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You're always messing up the [/QUOTE] - tags, oliver! I think it's insane to say that music only makes sense when listened to on excedingly expensive equipment. I already agreed on the superiority of Class A / Tube / etc. amps in comparison to cheap transistor amps. By the way - My Musical Fidelity amp indeed gave up the ghost ... and after that I bought the HK, because I was short on money and not much into music at the time (that was a short phase in my life). Maybe I'll buy an used Musical Fidelity X - amp sometime ... but right now I have other priorities. I know the difference which a good amp can make. The vinyl/CD/SACD/DVD-Audio discussion is also futile - I WILL stick with CD's, I made that decision long ago when my vinyl collection was destroyed by a water pipe leakage. I believe that CD's combined with a good amp and speakers are sufficient ... |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21196 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 15:36 |
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I have 550 CDs, many of them double disc sets. one CD consumes about 400MB on the hard disk, so I'd need 650 x 0.4 = 260MB hard disk space for my entire collection in lossless format. Obviously, I won't do that. But this weekend I'll convert some 25 favorite albums ... BTW: You can get Soundblaster Audigy cards pretty cheap on Ebay ... they have a digital interface, so you can connect them to an amp like a CD drive ... |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 15:40 |
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"I believe that CD's combined with a good amp and speakers are sufficient ..."
I think so. I think you would be happy with a musical player like a Nad, Rotel, Rega, Naim, Arcam or even Musical fidelity if you want. A musical integrated amp like Nad or Rotel and a pair of cheap Loudspeakears like Mission. Without forgetting good cables (QED). I advice you to turn on these cheap musical english brands. English are the kings of cheap and musical products. To conclude, you don't need to invest much, but you need to have only musical elements. That's all. Sell what you have (very easy) and follow my advices. For a very small amount of money, you'll have musical pleasure for years. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21196 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 16:14 |
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Since you are unable to explain what makes the musical CD player better than the computer, I did some research on upsampling: http://www.aslgroup.com/dcs/upandover.htm Now this begins to make some sense to me. The musical player is interpolating the 16bit/44.1khz data stream to 24bit/96khz or even 24bit/192khz and the D/A converter operates on the upsampled stream. The article confirms one of my earlier assumptions: both such players and "crappy" computers extract the same data from the CD, there is nothing the musical player can extract which the computer misses. The data stream is actually smoothened by the interpolation algorithm, making it sound less harsh and more harmonic than the original signal. Interestingly, modern PC sound cards also upsample 16bit/44.1khz CD audio to 24bit/96khz ... the question is now how the quality of the upsampling differs. I'll do some more research. Stay tuned! |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21196 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 16:29 |
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Hooray ... I found what I was looking for: http://www.soundblaster.com/products/x-fi/technology/ At last, Creative is introducing a new family of sound cards which use the same upsampling filters as the musical CD players. So I will get the best of both worlds: Computer with X-Fi sound card playing audio files in lossless formats -> connected to a Class A amp with good speakers.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 16:29 |
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This is a fascinating thread
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goose
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: June 20 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4097 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 16:43 |
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You can buy external hard drives fairly cheaply. I got one off ebay, 200GB for £70. It's a little noisy though.
I'm not sure if that's actually a perfect digital copy... Creative soundcards are notorious for upsampling to 48kHz when faced with a 44.1 signal. I don't know for sure if that affects the digital out but I imagine it would do, and that can only have negative impact on the sound.
And when it sounds too good to be true, it is
 . The X-Fi alters the sound by extreme compression and EQ, to makes things more easy to hear on cheap systems and in noisy environments but actually sounds worse... have a peek at www.hydrogenaudio.org |
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Digital Audio Myths - Listening on a PC
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MikeEnRegalia wrote:
