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MikeEnRegalia 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21116 |
 Posted: September 01 2005 at 10:36 |
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Do you own a computer with a digital interface? If the converter unit of the cd drive has a digital input, you could rip some CDs with CDex and directly compare the results.
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 01 2005 at 10:55 |
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I don't know what you mean, but a real cd drive, by nature doesn't have a converter, cause it's only dedicated to mechanic reading and the conversion is done by a dedicated converter, whih means two boxes linked by a digital cable.
Anyway, any sound that passes through a computer is rotten. Sorry! And i'm gonna tell you something you won't believe: a CD copy made on a computer sounds horrible on a transparent system (even with a little-but neutral and musical- integrated player) whereas a copy made on a GOOD burner, like the ones below is identic to the original. The computer burned cd sounds HARSH, loose dynamic, soundstage, image, details... EVERYBODY WHO DOES THE BLIND TEST HEARS A HUGE DIFFERENCE! SO FORGET COMPUTERS THERE'S NOTHING WORST FOR SOUND 
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 01 2005 at 11:06 |
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...I don't want to be mean,by telling that, Mike.
But that's my experience and i can prove it by a listening on my system. |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 01 2005 at 11:27 |
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Serious drive (Mark Levinson):
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21116 |
Posted: September 01 2005 at 11:31 |
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No problem ... Let's approach this from another angle. CDs contain a certain amount of data - 650MB for standard length CDs. This data can be extracted, resulting in a 650MB file on the hard disk - or several smaller files in the WAV format, which contain the same data as the audio CD. The point is: There's no additional information on the CD. The data is pressed on the CD and then read by the player and stored on the hard disk - there is absolutely no difference between the original file and the extracted one. Every bit is the same. Now: How can any player extract this information better than another? The player can't improve the information ... bad players interpolate information they cannot read - but for virtually all modern drives this only happens when the CD is damaged. And as for your remark about computers generally sounding crappy: It's only true for analog sound cards, or if you mess around with the signal (THX, EAX, equalizer etc.). If the digital signal is just forwarded to the digital output, then there is absolutely no difference. |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 01 2005 at 12:19 |
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The problem with copy computer cd is that it passes through a software which uses some algorythms which ruins the sound! whereas an audiophile burner like the one up (Denon CDR1000, the best in the world) doesn't have any software and really make a direct copy!
And i don't even talk about MP3 and others compressed formats, which are the worst thing ever created for sound! |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 01 2005 at 12:23 |
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"And as for your remark about computers generally sounding crappy: It's only true for analog sound cards, or if you mess around with the signal (THX, EAX, equalizer etc.). If the digital signal is just forwarded to the digital output, then there is absolutely no difference."
A computer ruins the sound, it's generate much electric pollution. It's to the point that when i swith off my computer in the house, i hear it right now on my system (whereas i use separate direct electric lines to the home counter for each device). That will make you laugh probably, but it's due to the electric pollution generated by the computer. |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 01 2005 at 12:24 |
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btw, you have some good musical tastes: krautrock, among others. Too bad you listen to a computer. You don't know what you miss: half of the instruments!
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 01 2005 at 12:29 |
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Have a look at my thread "budget hifi system" on page 2.
Here's something else than a computer. Computer is good to surf on the net... But not for playing music! |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21116 |
Posted: September 01 2005 at 13:57 |
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Not true ... what you describe CAN happen, but it can be avoided, like I explained above. You can configure your computer to route the digital information directly to the digital interface to the amplifier ... changing NOT A BIT. Please don't argue about that anymore ... I'm a software developer, I studied computer science at the university, including electronical engineering ... I KNOW.
Not true again. I don't only listen on the computer ... I'm a musician, and I've listened to music on a variety of systems. CD or vinyl, Class A HiFi amp, professional studio monitor system, band PA, ... I know the difference. I'm not saying that your system doesn't sound better. But it's not like computers sound like crap and any HiFi system sounds divine. MANY computers sound like crap and SOME HiFi systems also sound bad (or at least not as good as the price tag suggests).
Edited by MikeEnRegalia |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 01 2005 at 14:47 |
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"Not true ... what you describe CAN happen, but it can be avoided, like I explained above. You can configure your computer to route the digital information directly to the digital interface to the amplifier ... changing NOT A BIT. Please don't argue about that anymore ... I'm a software developer, I studied computer science at the university, including electronical engineering ... I KNOW."
Digital is very complex. I don't put in doubt your knowdledge, but if you come here and listen to an original CD, than a computer copy, and a good burner's copy, you'll undrestand that something's go wrong with computer's copy. That's why i gave a 100cd computer's copy collection to a friend! your computer is not properly shielded, if it interferes with your HiFi system. BTW: The problem is not limited to computers ... you should also turn of devices like washing machines, microwave ovens ... even dimmed lights cause problems. You're right! All devices pollute! that's why it sounds better at night! Even hifi devices pollute themselves among the system, especially digital. And when you have a very transparent system, you hear that! That's why i used separate lines and sector filters. It softens much. (they do the same in studio btw, using dedicated lines and filters like "la boîte noire"). "But it's not like computers sound like crap and any HiFi system sounds divine" Even some 1 million euros systems sound crap, but ALL computers sound crap! This is not a hifi source!!!! "I already have a good HiFi System: Harman Kardon HK 620, the matching Harman Kardon CD player" Not good at all, sorry "The main advantage of using the computer is that I have all my 7,000 songs available at the push of a button" I agree. What you win in convenient, you loose in quality. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21116 |
Posted: September 01 2005 at 18:42 |
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http://www.epinions.com/content_2815402116 http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_debunking_digitalaudio_myths / They sum up my point of view rather conclusively. I really see no point in trying to get the "perfect" sound anyway ... there will always be someone who has a better system. And let's not forget that audio CDs have a limited resolution. SACDs are WAY ahead of anything you could ever get out of a normal CD - provided of course that you have D/A converters which can handle that source. |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 05:46 |
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I know Hifi a little more than you, and i know that there are no SACD and DVD audio good enough for the momentto compete with top cd players. On the paper, it's better, but actually it's less good. For the moment. Classic cd is a 20 years old technology and it begins to be mature. You haven't heard so you don't know. This is a place dedicated to hifi, rememeber. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21116 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 06:11 |
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Let's leave it at that ... I don't want to spoil your precious HiFi thread any more. The others can read both our posts and decide for themselves what to believe. My doubts about the "esoteric" HiFi equipment belong in another thread - which I will create soon. |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 06:18 |
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I will be there 
Seriously, you can come here in France to listen and we can do all the tests and camparisons you want, i'm sure you'll be on my side. Bring whatever SACD or DVD A device you want, we'll compare to my CD system and we'll hear. |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 06:38 |
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I've read the "epinion" article. I disagree with most statements, some are true.
I'm ready to debate each point. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21116 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 06:42 |
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Sounds tempting ... but I'd have to bring my computer, which is a little cumbersome. Do you have a computer with a digital interface which you can connect to your amp? I'm just curious. |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 07:11 |
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No, of course! i only use it to go on the net!
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 02 2005 at 07:40 |
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Actually, i don't know, this my mother's computer which features a cheap soundboard.
But the best soundboard of the world will change nothing. |
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oliverstoned wrote:
I guess we have reached a point where the arguing starts to get repetitive. Have a look at these web pages: