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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
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Points: 10266
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 03:31 |
maani wrote:
1. As a result of the Big Bang, energy was "released" 2. Had that energy not been released, it would not have created helium, hydrogen and the other initial elements. 3. Had those elements not been created, other elements would not have been created. 4. Had all the elements not been created, there would not have been "matter." 5. Had matter not been created, there would not have been nebulae, etc. 6. Had those nebulae not been created - and had gravity not played its part - there would be no stars or galaxies. 7. If stars and galaxies had not been created, there would be no star systems. 8. If star systems had not been created, there would be no planetary systems around some of those stars. 9.
If planetary systems had not been created, our sun would not have
"captured" the nine (not ten?) known planets in its system. 10.
If the sun had not captured the nine planets in its system - in the
exact configuration and distances - there would not have been a
planet in that system that had an "atmosphere" in which life could be created. 11.
If that atmosphere around the third planet had not formed exactly as it
did, it would not have trapped the necessary elements and molecules
required to generate life. 12. If it had not trapped the
necessary elements and molecules required to generate life, then even
one-celled life would not have formed. 13. If one-celled life had not formed, then two-celled life could not have formed. 14. If two-celled life had not formed, then the evolution of life would not have occurred. 15. If the evolution of life had not occurred exactly
as it did, then some amphibians would not have become reptiles; some
reptiles would not have become birds and mammals; some mammals would
not have become primates; some primates would not have become
Australopithecus; Australopithecus would not have become Homo habilis;
Homo habilis would not have become Homo erectus; Homo erectus would not
have become Homo sapiens; and Homo sapiens would not have become Homo
sapiens sapiens.
Certainly one could look at the timeline "backward." But that is not how the anthropic principle is arrived at.
Peace. |
I know all that, Maani. perhaps I expressed myself badly. scientific
explanations are not teleologic. the field of teleology is left to
theology. what I meant is that science usually works the other way
round. science is there to predict what will happen given certain
premises. but the anthropic princiiple works this way: if only one of
these events in your list had not happened, mankind would never exist.
but that's no more than a banality. what is often derived from this
anthropic principle though is that there had to be a purpose in events
happening exactly this way, and this is used as a proof for the
existence of God. now as much as I believe in a deity, this argument
has holes. we might as well have arrived at some kind of "conscious
life" via a completely different road. we have no idea what this kind
of "conscious life" would have been like though; the earlier in the
stage the bifurcation would have taken place, the stranger the result
would seem to us humans. what if, for example, life would be based on
silicon and not on carbon?
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Points: 32995
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 05:05 |
Man created God in his own image!!!
Short and sweet I know, but it just about covers it.
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NutterAlert
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Joined: June 07 2005
Location: In transition
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Points: 2808
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 05:28 |
Worth checking out Oolong Caloophid's trilogy on this subject:
"Where God went wrong", "More of God's Greatest Mistakes" and "That about wraps it up for God then".
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Snow Dog
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 05:50 |
Didn't he write " Who is this God person, anyway?" as well?
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NutterAlert
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Joined: June 07 2005
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Points: 2808
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 05:52 |
Yes, you're probably right. In which case its a trilogy in four parts. Seems somehow appropriate.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 05:58 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:04 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Man created God in his own image!!!
Short and sweet I know, but it just about covers it. |
man created an image of God in his own image. and it is this certain
image atheists deny, and rightly so. but that has nothing to do with
denying God. again I recommend to read this:
http://www.gaiaguys.net/taoist.htm . an eye-opener for both believers
and atheists
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Snow Dog
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:09 |
BaldJean wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Man created God in his own image!!!
Short and sweet I know, but it just about covers it.
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man created an image of God in his own image. and it is this certain image atheists deny, and rightly so. but that has nothing to do with denying God. again I recommend to read this: http://www.gaiaguys.net/taoist.htm . an eye-opener for both believers and atheists
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No...God doesn't exist, so its not an image of anything real. That is why my statement stands! Faeries don't exist either BTW!
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BaldJean
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Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:12 |
go to that link I gave you and read from beginning to end. your position will greatly weaken then
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Snow Dog
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:16 |
No it won't.....
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Snow Dog
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:21 |
If you think I'm going to read all that crap, you are sadly mistaken!
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BaldJean
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Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:25 |
oh, you are omniscient? you know so in advance? prhaps you re
omnipotent and omnipresent too! why don't you give it a try? afraid?
it is all a matter of the definition of "God"; as I said, what you deny
is a certain image of God (the Christian one). I even agree with you
there in denying that image. but that has nothing to do with denying God
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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NutterAlert
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 07 2005
Location: In transition
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Points: 2808
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:29 |
^^ I'm tempted to make a humerous observation, but i'm going to stay well out of it. I still remember the gun thread
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Snow Dog
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:31 |
I ain't afraid Toots! But as God doesn't exist, I have nothing to deny!
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:39 |
then go thee and read. here the address again:
http://www.gaiaguys.net/taoist.htm it is very entertaining, even for
atheists; you can always pretend the mortal in that dialogue is
schizophrenic and only talking to himself; "God" even suggests so
himself in that dialogue. if this dialogue doesn't make you laugh at
times then you are a moron without any humor at all
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:40 |
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
Tony R wrote:
Stephen Hawking believes in God and is a Christian.
Just thought I would make that point.It shows that clear thinkers can have warped perception.
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I don't believe you. 
goose wrote:
It's impossible to prove anything without making assumptions. Assumptions required to believe in scientific theory are just easier to make in this day and age.
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The satellites orbitting earth prove the theory of gravity right. What kind of assumptions I have to do about it? 
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That the satellites actually are orbiting earth, that a higher power isn't making them do so, that the satellites aren't a figment of everyone's imagination, that the earth isn't a figment of everyone's imagination. It may sound silly but the last three can't possibly be proven either way (and hence nor can the first). Nobody can know for certain that their senses are giving them an accurate portrayal of the world and universe around them. I'm not saying they don't, by any means, as I expect they do, but as long as it isn't proven any observations rely on assumptions 
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Snow Dog
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Joined: March 23 2005
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:47 |
BaldJean wrote:
then go thee and read. here the address again: http://www.gaiaguys.net/taoist.htm it is very entertaining, even for atheists; you can always pretend the mortal in that dialogue is schizophrenic and only talking to himself; "God" even suggests so himself in that dialogue. if this dialogue doesn't make you laugh at times then you are a moron without any humor at all |
Its not funny, its very boring and I hated it! But if I'm a moron......well I'd better not say what you are...
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NutterAlert
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:55 |
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Snow Dog
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 06:58 |
^ What you trying to say Nutter?
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: August 15 2005 at 07:01 |
it's boring? very interesting indeed. your sense of humor must be totally different from mine
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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